Elaine Forbes, Executive Director, Port of San Francisco

Peter Ravella  0:00  
Welcome, everybody. This is Peter Ravella, in a special edition of the American shoreline podcast from San Francisco, California, with my co host, Tyler Buckingham on the American shoreline podcast, and our very special guest, the director of the Port of San Francisco, Elaine Forbes. Elaine, thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedule to be with us today.

Elaine Forbes  0:22  
Well, thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Peter Ravella  0:24  
And also joining us today is the host of the shorewords podcast on the American shoreline Podcast Network, Leslie Ewing. And so we're out in San Francisco, we have to take advantage leslie of being in your territory. And thank you so much for joining us on the show today.

Leslie Ewing  0:39  
Thank you for asking me, and thank you for coming to San Francisco.

Tyler Buckingham  0:43  
It's great to be here. lezlie. We love San Francisco. And you know, it's just one of the most beautiful darn cities in the world. And it's this venue. We're out here at Fort Mason for this film festival is unreal. And actually where we are right now. Are you the audience will remember from our previous checking. We were behind the theater, we have moved now to this old firehouse, the Fort Mason grounds and we're tucked away in the back there was just a great panel discussion on climate change. And so we want to pull Elaine aside and continue the conversation and and dive in a little deeper.

Peter Ravella  1:24  
Elaine, would you tell us about the panel introduce this please. To the panel guests. You were sitting with the in the discussion of climate change.

Elaine Forbes  1:32  
lOkay, so I had the opportunity. We had an amazing moderator, first of all, which was just fantastic. And we had Dr. Foley, who is a scientist and an educator and knows a lot about how we can cure our planet of the ills of climate change. He left us with the message that we can solve the problem which I hadn't heard and nearly ever. Yeah. Which was fantastic. And then we had a scientist from the state of California who works on oceans, and she is doing major policy work as it relates to the state and keeping our oceans clean.

Peter Ravella  2:22  
Yes. And, you know, it was a really great discussion, we had the director, the porter member, the explorers cup, some real thinkers and innovators on climate change. And delaine. We got what I was very interested in in in in your presentation was an overview of the resiliency efforts that the Port of San Francisco is undertaking, in light of what you expect to be fairly significant sea level rise in the San Francisco Bay system over the next 50 years.

Elaine Forbes  2:54  
I did want to say I've just wanted to give their names Whitney Berry, who is the Climate Change Manager of California ocean protection Council. And I mentioned Jonathan Foley. And our moderator was Jonathan Knowles. He's the adviser to the Schmidt marine technology partners. So it's a really good group of people. So yes, San Francisco shoreline is looking to do major innovation and intervention to protect the city from the rising tide. And we're working on two fronts. Now one to figure out adaptive management strategies, because we have a beautiful waterfront

Peter Ravella  3:37  
absolutely stunning,

Elaine Forbes  3:38  
and a wonderful historic district that 24 million people enjoy every year. And we want to keep what we have for as long as we can. So we've done an amazing job connecting the beautiful city with its Bay. Yes. And there are a lot of excellent adaptive strategies that we can deploy to buy a lot of runway for the future enjoyment of this place. At the same time, we need to understand that we're going to have six to 10 feet of rise by 2100. Well, and our current elevation and our shoreline will not be able, but especially the hard edges will not be able to accommodate that. So we're working on our adaptive strategies. At the same time. We're thinking through what the future holds, and planning for that future. It's something that we may not deploy fully, it may be left to future generations, but we need to understand where we think is the best, most reasonable where place to head so that we can leave a framework and at a bare minimum for the next generation. Right.

Peter Ravella  4:51  
And I you know, I thought in your remarks, one of the important points that jumped out at me was number one, the Port of San Francisco manages seven miles of the beach. front of this fantastic city, which is a stunning bit of territory to

Elaine Forbes  5:04  
seven and a half, seven and a half, one half more mile. And that's all of Bay front property. So we're on the San Francisco Bay.

Peter Ravella  5:12  
Okay. And the point that you made in was very, I think very well stated. When you talk about retreat, there's a lot of discussion of retreat around the country in various situations. When is it appropriate for us to get away from the water because of what's happening along the shoreline. Urban waterfronts are a special challenge, because there is basically no realistic opportunity that we are going to depart from these major cities shorelines, whether it's New York City, or Miami, or Seattle or San Francisco or LA. These are the great American coastal cities that are plopped

Elaine Forbes  5:50  
next to the waters. That's right, because we in many instances, our beginnings were from the Bay from the water. You know, San Francisco started as a fishing village, essentially. So our city grew around our waterfront. And it's absolutely true that managed retreat is not a tool that works in every every situation. And for the cities. There's so much infrastructure and systems transportation systems that come right behind these shorelines which are often human made. And retreat is a very costly conversation to have. So where retreat works, retreats are wonderful and a great tool and you can add nature to the retreat and do all sorts of problem solving there. But for these hearted shorelines, we do need to pick a line of defense, we absolutely need a line of defense.

Tyler Buckingham  6:51  
It's you have a fascinating jurisdiction, because it's basically the entire base side. I mean, most of the base side of, of the city. And so anybody that's ever been to San Francisco and walks along the beautiful Bay underneath the Bay Bridge, and all around, you're basically,

Elaine Forbes  7:11  
Part property are on the port. That's right.

Tyler Buckingham  7:13  
And so when people think of a port, normally they're not thinking of such a public space. I mean, we fact we had a previous conversation where it's like, there's always a big gate around the port, you can

Peter Ravella  7:24  
never get into the port. Yeah, there's something happening behind the fence. But we never know, in your case. This is the most public waterfront, probably not in states, I would imagine. Certainly in an urban area. Very big deal.

Elaine Forbes  7:35  
Yes. And a lot of that is because our shipping went away from the northern waterfront. So the ports you're you're familiar with where you can't get behind them, because it's fenced in and there's their maritime terminals, essentially, that deal with tons and tons of cargo. And our port, the shipping moved, it was breakbulk cargo moved south. And so we had an assemblage of historic facilities, and the freeway came down and we took a bunch of very good civic actions and getting our, our Ferry Building opened, bringing the Giants ballpark to the waterfront, getting the Exploratorium and a historic finger Pier, enjoying Fisherman's Wharf and pier 39 for visitors and locals alike. And so we have a very and then we have thanks to the Bay Area conservation and Development Commission here in California. That entire mission is to open waterfronts to the public's enjoyment. And the state lands commission. Both of those regulators, for me, are attuned to the goal of bringing people to its waterfront, it's publicly owned. So we absolutely have a different assemblage of facilities and experience here in San Francisco.

Tyler Buckingham  8:51  
Well, it's it's a port with an economic model that not not many share, you know,

Elaine Forbes  8:57  
well, actually, I mean, if you think of other port facilities, some of them have also shrunk over time, because of the business has has been changing. So there, they'll have their traditional terminals, and I have traditional terminals as well. And you're not thinking of them.

Peter Ravella  9:12  
Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that. Yes. Tell us a little when you're getting to that point. Yes,

Elaine Forbes  9:15  
absolutely. So I have a traditional cargo facility appear at which imports and exports automobiles, and we have another terminal at 92 through 96. And that's more aggregate and soils. We have some labor vessels there and we're trying to build the business actually, in those facilities. But the public isn't going there. That's where the business that the cargo business is located. But other other shorelines like San Diego and New York, New Jersey, New York, just built a huge park in Brooklyn. Yeah, the Brooklyn Park on former port facilities. I think the difference in our model is the Port Authority here does that economic development work directly with our tenants? So I'm in an economic development business as the port director. Whereas in the other cities, I think they tend to give those surplus to cargo properties over to their economic development arm or their parks department or whomever is going to take the property to its new, new iteration.

Peter Ravella  10:24  
What a fascinating job. I got to tell you, it just sounds extraordinary. Thank you. It it challenges seeming churning. I wanted to, to mention in your presentation, you discussed the 1890. I think it was 1890, I guess the 1920s seawall that was built this aggregate an engineered sitting on the bay bottom, as you said, an engineered soils, which I know exactly what that means. This thing is very well, let's just say it's probably outlived its useful life. Yes. And as you confront sea level rise, the necessity of dealing with this structure, this seven and a half mile long, urban city barrier is really got to be a challenge. And I know you spoke about this a little bit. I wonder if you'd share with our listeners, how you approach an issue of that complexity?

Elaine Forbes  11:14  
It absolutely does need to be addressed. I mean, I think at the time it was built, it was a feat of engineering and ingenuity that has done its job for 100 years and most San Franciscans didn't know they had a sea wall. I mean, that's the strange thing about

Peter Ravella  11:29  
this news to me. I will admit to that.

Elaine Forbes  11:32  
I'm glad I could introduce you to something new today.

Tyler Buckingham  11:35  
Leslie broke that on us the other night at dinner.

Peter Ravella  11:37  
We were sitting on it. I was like, there's a see what we're Yeah, well, okay.

Leslie Ewing  11:41  
And so much of the development you just talked about being sort of the rejuvenation of the shoreline is all right within that liquefaction zone, the areas that are fraught with geologic concern where there is Phil there is just unconsolidated unthought about Phil placed in first. So you've got, you've got a lot of issues to deal with.

Elaine Forbes  12:00  
I do. And you know, I think a lot of shoreline communities are unfill in earthquake country, a very bad situation. And our beautiful waterfront is very vulnerable. It's in terrible risk in a big earthquake. And the city of San Francisco now has been introduced to its seawall. It understands the seismic risk because over 80% of the voters 83% just approved $425 million bond. Well, for us to get it What a great thing, what

Peter Ravella  12:35  
a great vote to get 83% that says you did your work, it was driving the community about the importance of that issue.

Elaine Forbes  12:42  
And that San Franciscans did their work. And taking a look at the issue and understanding why it's absolutely critical that we make investments to keep ourselves safe in an earthquake, and to prepare for climate change. So it's definitely not an engineering project. It's not easy to work in this area, with so many people enjoying it with so many great facilities. But we are tackling it like you tackle all problems with one foot in front of the other. we're utilizing great expertise, we have the Army Corps of Engineers helping us and they worked in Sandy and Katrina. Yeah. And we just have the best people on the job that are solving problems.

Leslie Ewing  13:23  
So you mentioned that the city can anticipate six to 10 feet of sea level rise by the end of the century. Are you starting to plan for that now? Are you going to do it incrementally or you can kind of build up as you can go?

Elaine Forbes  13:36  
I would say more the latter. At this moment in time, we are definitely building up as we go with an incremental approach, I would almost call it aggressive incremental ism. But I am looking to a frame. I do want that created of where we will head in 2100. So we need a long community dialogue about that because there are going to be major trade off decisions we need to make. And we need to obviously do it right because it's such an important piece of our cultural identity and our city values and vitality of the city is our waterfront.

Tyler Buckingham  14:13  
Can I follow up on that? Leslie? So one of the interesting things that I'm thinking about this is first of all, San Francisco is kind of a notoriously progressive community. And obviously, there are many iconic cities in America that our harbor port cities, New York, Boston, Miami, we could just la the Seattle, we could go on and on. When you're looking around the country and seeing what you're trying to do here and you're seeing what's going on elsewhere, do you feel like you're ahead of the curve that you are setting culture that you're that's part of the San Francisco identity, I mean, are you living up to is that like part of what you're trying to do?

Elaine Forbes  14:55  
I admit we're living up to that we are living up to our our reputation. We are ahead of the curve on this. And I think the reason why we're ahead of the curve is the earthquake risk, right? So we need to adapt, and we're on totally shaky, unstable ground. So I don't have time on my side. I need to deal with that. I need to deal with building a foundation first that we can adapt from. And so other city waterfront cities don't all have that earthquake risk I have. So I think that's why we're ahead.

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Peter Ravella  16:26  
It's a great motivator. It's an hour. It's what I call an outside forcing agent which is a common attribute of coastal planning. Over in Florida or on the eastern seaboard where hurricanes are persistent risk, that tends to focus people's attention in solutions. And you get past the politics a little bit because the risks are evident and substantial. We have a lot of engineers who listen to the American troll I podcast so I have to ask you a design quick.

Elaine Forbes  16:55  
Okay, but I'm not an engineer may not answer perfectly.

Peter Ravella  16:59  
It's not it's not a technical one. I'm curious about do you anticipate over time that the the currency wall that's protecting the beautiful city of San Francisco is going to be replaced? And is it going to be raised? Or do you know yet?

Elaine Forbes  17:17  
I think it will be replaced. And I believe it will there will be stuff on top of it. I don't think the wall itself is going to be taller, I think we will build berms and other things on top of a strong seawall that satisfy and provide flood protection. We're looking at a lot of various different solutions, some land side some water side. And dealing with the seismic issue is is more about the soils around the wall. And the wall is old and cracking and has gone on past its useful life. The flood options are some of them have that could happen not on the wall itself, but inland a little inland or Bay word. I see. So there are different like breakwaters or things that we may we're exploring. Yeah. They're they're all challenging in various ways. Mostly, I think the most important thing for us is the environmental pieces, because the bay is such a resource to the entire region. So whatever we do needs to make sure the bay is healthy and well. But I don't know the absolute answer. But I it's possible that the seawall will end up taller, but at this moment, I don't see that.

Leslie Ewing  18:43  
So one of the other things San Franciscans are just totally proud of is the views. And so as you start raising anything, be at a wall or a berm, that's gonna change the views, both looking at the city and looking from the city.

Elaine Forbes  18:58  
That's right. And that's why I started with, I want to have what we have, as long as we can have it this beautiful connection between the city and the bay, it's possible that over time, the Embarcadero will be lower lying and we'll step up in some way to the bay and have some type of living shoreline and sections. You know, stepping up, it's possible we'll raise more on the land side to keep that clean connection. These are the kind of urban form conversations that are very deep conversations to have with the community. We'll be working with our partners at the planning department and city wide to have those conversations but you're right. It's it's very important that we get it right.

Leslie Ewing  19:43  
And we just had 10 years ago the transformation of Treasure Island to be a developed area that will be public space and development areas and people will be living out there. Yes. And they went through the same issues of how do you take this manmade constructed Island right So they've got this wonderful solution of armoring and then with a berm behind it for people to be able to walk on that will eventually be the next level of protection. That's right, we do have a local issue for local follow.

Elaine Forbes  20:12  
It's a very good example. It's a very smart solution.

Peter Ravella  20:15  
Well, the other thing, I think, in terms of the reputation of the community in the city, the coastal space brings together this conflict of perspectives and interest, the view scape, the economics deport the resiliency, the the economic interests that are affected by what you do are massive and strong and powerful. And I'm sure you're very aware of who they are. But that I just say the Golden Gate Bridge is a great example of a function and form and beauty and an engineering solution. I mean, it's a little simpler than retooling of waterfront. But I do think there is a standard here of finding solutions to difficult technical problems that are absolutely, stunningly beautiful and work. It seems like a lot of Do you feel a lot of pressure every day? How does it do you sleep? Well? I mean, how does it I mean, if I had to think about the liquification soil thing behind that seawall, this 500 acres of beachfront I would probably not sleep, Well,

Elaine Forbes  21:17  
I'll tell you, when there is a shaker at night, I wake up very strongly and get concerned about what level of earthquake we've just had. So the earthquake risk does does keep me on my toes. And we are racing against the clock on that. But in terms of getting it right and figuring out a good solution for the waterfront, we have great design energy in the city and innovative energy in the city, I'm not going to figure it out, I'm going to provide a platform for smart people to talk about it and track what they're saying and continue the dialogue and find solutions and then all sell the perfect solution. Right. But I I don't feel that I feel the community has a lot of resources to work this

Peter Ravella  22:01  
through. Understand. When when you're looking at executing the strategy you guys are working on and building over the next, you know, decade really or longer. What forces and I am this is a political question. I don't mean this in a negative way. Because I think politics is the art of living together, I actually have high regard for the talented talent it takes to be effective in the political universe. When you look at the the issues and the in the interest that you are going to have to work with, who jumps out what interests are the most powerful in terms of how this has to be done? Is that Is that a fair question? I mean, everybody matters. I don't want to say everybody doesn't. But can you educate us a little bit about the decision making tree that you're gonna have to go through?

Elaine Forbes  22:55  
Okay, I'm my own head is exploding a little bit, because there are a lot of stakeholders here. I think the thing that matters, that that kind of is prioritized other over other stakeholders are the city's needs for the waterfront. Just really basic things like emergency exiting, right? So I'm talking earthquake right now. So we need to get people out of the city by ferry, and we need to get goods in by ferry. So that has to work. Wow. So you know, the things that we're not, you're asking me like, how is the waterfront going to be beautiful and effective as a flood protection line of defense, what's the new form going to be? I worry much less about those conversations that are very complex and will will take shape. I worry more that the waterfront won't be prepared for the earthquake, the public safe to public safety. So public safety definitely is an organizing principle for for our project. The trust values of the port, what the port is, it's a publicly accessible, publicly owned place. It has economic commerce, maritime commerce, we move people by ferry and cruise ships. We have cargo these are important. jobs that are important. And then that public accessibility with whatever waterfront we build, it needs to meet the Trust's mission. So that's definitely organizing and very important. And then I think the economic vitality and enjoyment and uniqueness of the place is another principle that we want it to be special,

Peter Ravella  24:46  
right? You got to have Whitehall.

Elaine Forbes  24:48  
Yes.

Leslie Ewing  24:49  
So how are you anticipating the port will develop in the future? separate from the climate issue? What are your goals for the vitality of the port? For the next 20 years, whats the goals?

Elaine Forbes  25:08  
So we're right now working on the development of two neighborhoods, mission rock and pure 70 40% and 30%, affordability respectively, amazing public benefits. And I'm seeing we're seeing those new neighborhoods come up will be very important for the waterfront. We have a bunch of historic facilities in the national registered Embarcadero Historic District, which have not seen investment, or any significant investment, and they're close to the public. Some of them aren't even tenanted vacant facilities. And I'd like to see those facilities invested in and opened up to the public, I think it's a real shame, to lose the opportunity to enjoy the historic resources. Now, these facilities are not going I don't know where they had passed 2070 2080. But this is where I say those adaptive strategies are so critical, because to tell a whole generation of people that the pier should be shuttered to them, because we don't know what happens after 2080 makes no sense to me.

Peter Ravella  26:24  
They'd hate that.

Elaine Forbes  26:25  
I hate it. No, we don't like  it

Peter Ravella  26:29  
I love these old peers that are like, wow, these look where we are right now. They're just

Elaine Forbes  26:34  
Theyre beautiful. They're wonderful. So I'm working with my team and the port Commission and the city on a plan for those those facilities. And we'll be engaging public private partnerships to get those through. And in terms of other development, we are working on ferries and getting more ferry landings more people onto the water. The Bay is such a great resource, and we're landside transportation. We're just gridlocked. And so we need to get people out onto the water. So that's very important. To get that infrastructure in for the community

Leslie Ewing  27:11  
that these guys had come by ferry, they would know there was a seawall around the city. That's right.

Peter Ravella  27:17  
We drove in.

Tyler Buckingham  27:20  
That's also interesting. I mean, you know, it's one of my favorite things when you come to San Francisco, is you, I mean, there's just a historical residue on the city. And this waterfront has changed a lot. I mean, I remember growing up seeing like, the aerial footage and the 101 freeway like, went through the waterfront area, right, like, and that's all been cleared out and reimagined. And I mean, it just these cities are living things, and they totally are a reflection of not only like, here, you are looking forward to 2080. But you're also like, holding on to this tradition and culture. Like when we were talking on the on when you were on the panel, the city of New Orleans came up, you know, it's like, there's the human component is so powerful. And here we are in this dance with the bay. I mean, Boy, that's a difficult balance to

Elaine Forbes  28:24  
strike. Absolutely. And I I think it is a way to manage the facilities, acknowledging the past and respecting the past, well, leaning into the future, and you can't just do one or the other, to make these cities, amazing places, and these waterfront amazing places. And I do think that the historic nature of the port is a value to the city and something that makes the city so much more interesting and exciting to enjoy. And so I do think that the preservation pieces are critical to our success.

Leslie Ewing  29:06  
I think one of the things Tyler just mentioned, though, of the freeway being removed, that was, I mean, it was a horrible event that happened that was the Loma Prieta earthquake that took the freeway down. But I think it's also so commendable that everyone took a chance to step back and say, maybe we don't put this freeway back. But we turn this into an open space in an area where we look toward the waterfront. That was really the turning point to me for the city. It's

Elaine Forbes  29:31  
it was the absolute turning point for the waterfront. And it was a battle at the time. It was not a consensus decision. It may or add knows at the time was a visionary. And he said we this is the waterfront we want to enjoy this but before that point when the freeway was in front of all those historic resources, no one was coming to the waterfront, there was hardly anything but you know, storage or some parking and other uses in the piers. It was kind of seedy. It was a little seedy. Yes.

Leslie Ewing  30:02  
The dog bar really was a dive bar. Yeah.

Tyler Buckingham  30:05  
Part of me laments, you know, it's pours by old days.

Yes, I'm sure there were certain things to love about it, but mostly it's a major improvement. And I think most I mean, it's a wonderful that there are people here in San Francisco now that don't remember not being connected to the Bay. And this way.

Peter Ravella  30:25  
You know, when I think about this transformation of shorelines around the United States, and it's one of the great things about being in the port business is the way that we use that water's edge is remarkable. I think of Cannery Row here that reflected a particular biological productivity of the area, the Gold Rush here, the history is wrapped up in our shorelines and you're about to lead the 21st century transformation of this great American coastal city. I just think it when you get together with the other port directors, are they jealous that you're the director? Because it's gotta be the cooler cooler one in the community, is it?

Elaine Forbes  31:08  
I don't think they're jealous. They might if they're jealous, they're not telling me about it. Because most port directors like to run a cargo business and like to work on logistics and getting the most efficient trains. trucks.

Tyler Buckingham  31:30  
Can I ask, Can I ask a question? Just really quickly. This spurred me because what I have noticed I and I lived in San Francisco for like a year. So forgive me on my knowledge is kind of shaky. But I have seen you know, the San Francisco port traffic seems to be less than that of Oakland, just right across the bay. Yes. So let's and let's talk about that a little bit. Because you know, Oakland, one of the things that you actually mentioned in your presentation, was had to do with the intersectionality of climate change and community, lower income communities being affected and how we need to invest in those areas. There's a dynamic in the East Bay in San Francisco that goes back a long time. The East Bay history, I think it's fair to say was, there was less opportunity, it was poor, it's blacker. And I've seen this trend of cargo, where I know that San Francisco at one point had a vibrant cargo port. And now it's moving over there. Is that Is this a fair? What What's happening here?

Elaine Forbes  32:33  
So it's different actually, than just that classic? Yeah, critique in terms of San Francisco dynamics and race dynamics. What happened is San Francisco had breakbulk, cargo, okay. And cargo containerized. And San Francisco didn't make the right investment choices to containerize. We still don't really handle much container cargo at all we do. We do some what we call project cargo, which comes in containers, but they're very large containers. And Oakland, we had a lot of shipbuilding during the war effort. And that may have been why we didn't make investments in in the necessary infrastructure to handle containerized cargo. And at the same time, we were, you know, the breakbulk was the business just was going away. And so we had all these facilities just to handle a kind of cargo that was drying up in terms of the amount of flows, right. And so that's when cargo really moved from the north to the south. Interesting. And Oakland, meanwhile, was building its maritime terminal with all the necessary infrastructure to handle the cargo movement of the day. And that's why the container ships go to Oakland. And still the breakbulk cargo comes to San Francisco, whether that be soils or aggregate or automobiles, that's what we handle in the south.

Tyler Buckingham  34:04  
Very interesting. Thank you.

Leslie Ewing  34:05  
And do you also handle the airport?

Elaine Forbes  34:08  
No. If I did, I'd be wealthy.

Leslie Ewing  34:14  
You will also be so nervous and scared.

Elaine Forbes  34:16  
That's true. No, I'm sure the airport director has a very complicated difficult job. But in many cities, airports and ports are combined. And I'm a former CFO. And the airport's drive the balance sheet in almost every instance ports are struggling enterprises because they have deep infrastructure requirements. cargo and goods movement is a changing dynamic. So ports don't tend to be as wealthy as airports.

Leslie Ewing  34:48  
You've got the idea that I mean ships turn around in 10 1520 years for the technology completely. And yet you can't do that your port facility nearly as quickly. That's right.

Peter Ravella  35:01  
we're going to have one last question because it was from your presentation and i'm wondering if you could comment on it i've been reading about what's happening in in shipping emissions around the world and the efforts to cut co2 emissions from from the maritime industry by 50% i think it's by 2040 this is an international initiative i believe in eu led initiative if that's right

right about that d would tell us what how does this how does the port of san francisco fit into that are you guys obviously it was in the slide it was part of your adaptation strategy could you comment on that particular problem

Elaine Forbes  35:38  
yes so historically because these are such heavy pieces of equipment the emissions from ships are poor right from ferries from ships big and small and there's and it's serious because they you know you just cannot have those dirty emissions even if it's require its has historically been required to make the vessels go but there's been incredible innovations especially out of europe in this arena really incredible changes and we're seeing it now in our portfolio we of course have adopted all the carb requirements of the state but our tenants we have excursion vessels and our own red and white fleet is trying to build a hydrogen vessel they have 100% electric vessel well the hydra and so they are leading by example and working with the state on grants so our tenants are bringing solutions and they know that the bay area market once the cleanest greenest bay cruise or ferry brought boat ride you know in the area and and so they're responding to that demand it's very exciting

Peter Ravella  37:00  
so cool elaine forbes executive director of the port of san francisco joined us today from the international oceans film festival from fort mason fantastic thank you so much and to have our our podcast host from shore words leslie ewing thank you for joining the american trail and

Tyler Buckingham  37:22  
gratulations to leslie for show out great to have you on the great to have you on the network leslie

Leslie Ewing  37:28  
great to be on the network thank you

Elaine Forbes  37:30  
thank you thank you

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