Going Beyond the Coast During the Ocean Decade - A Treaty to Protect the High Seas | Ocean Decade Show!

Taylor Goelz  0:00  

Welcome to the eighth episode of the ocean decade show a podcast dedicated to guiding you down the yellow brick road of this global initiative to transform the ocean. housed within the American shoreline Podcast Network family. My name is Taylor Goelz, and I'm your host and tour guide on our adventure through the ocean decade. Naturally, many of the episodes that we've had on this podcast as far as a minute, there's been eight and then I'm saying many but and that will continue to have focus really on the coastal areas of the ocean, just because naturally, that's where humans and the ocean interact, that you don't usually think of the ocean in and of itself, you think about how humans interact with it. That's how we get people to care. That's how we that's how we learn about it's how we study the ocean. in coastal areas are easier, easier and cheaper to study. It's when it's when scientists or policy people or others justify their work to funders or the general public. The so what is easier when you're talking about coastal areas, if you're talking about looking at coastal erosion, that's going to help save houses from falling into the water, you're looking at coastal bacteria, things that are gonna infect, you know, beaches, and hurt recreation or tourism. So there's a lot of direct impacts on human life coastal economies, tourism, like I said, General well being that many people can see feel and measure. And so it's it's been natural that a lot of the episodes that you'll focus on with the ocean decade and with the ocean in general are going to be coastal in nature. And that's even when you go up from a local level to a national level. So countries, in the countries that represent themselves in the UN, they care about the ocean, up until about that 200 nautical mile boundary, which is their exclusive economic zone are easy. That's not even the acronym for the episode. It just they all fall in. So it's an area that all coastal countries have a claim where they have jurisdiction, so they can set the regulations enforce laws. So they do a lot of carrying of the ocean from the coast out into that 200 nautical miles. But when you think about just how vast the oceans are, and it's a hard thing to think about, it's like asking someone like, how big is space, you know that that's about how far removed we are usually from being able to think about how big the ocean is. But over 60% of the ocean 61%, according to the deep ocean stewardship initiative are is known as the high seas and it falls outside of these national jurisdictions. And area vast open ocean deep seabed areas, areas where many humans will never see or experience. It's in this amalgamation of realities really complicates the so what factor in terms of both protection and study that these areas are beyond national governments reach and so they can't unilaterally do any sort of regulation or any sort of conservation or protection. And so they usually don't see the point of looking into these areas. And it's really expensive to get out there in the middle of the ocean and try to do that sort of work. And you try to think about, well, why does this matter? If if I'm a, you know, a country that's trying to, you know, increase my tourism, my coastal economy, like, does this matter to me and that, so what is sometimes more complicated. And so without that human connection element, it's easier for countries to NORC. But ignoring these areas, science tells us is not beneficial to these countries at all. Because there's only one ocean, remember, drop the s and everything that happens in the high seas impacts countries ease and vice versa. The High Seas is a wealth of biodiversity, we're over 4 million metric tons of fish are caught. And some scientists predict that we can still find over 200,000 species hidden in the high seas. You're not going to find that with Jeff Bezos on Mars or wherever he goes next. protection of the high seas could also safeguard marine biodiversity, protect top predators, maintain ecosystem balance and help build ecosystem resilience to climate change. And crucially, for countries who will be working on setting these boundaries in this episode that we're gonna get to talking about here in a bit. protections for the high seas can benefit neighboring ecosystems in geographical areas, like I said, so countries easy's they feed into each other, that there's not some strict boundary at 200 nautical miles that where people say, Oh, well Now this doesn't matter to us anymore, and it's not going to impact what's inside are easy. So we don't care. We can't think like that.

But these areas, these, this high seas area was ignored for a really long time. In 2004, it was when the UN first established an ad hoc open ended in formal working groups say that three times fast to study issues related to the conservation and sustainable use of Marine Biological Diversity beyond national jurisdiction. So outside that 200 nautical mile easy. But then it wasn't until 2017 that the UN General Assembly adopted a resolution to convene an intergovernmental conference to pursue a treaty to protect the high seas. So we've moved from a working group to maybe think about it and then in 2017 Actually, countries got together and said, okay, we need to come to some sort of agreement on how we need to protect this together to create a comprehensive conservation and regulatory mechanism. The first three sessions were held in 2018 and 2019 of the this conference, but the fourth and final session aimed for 2020. And I think you know what I'm about to say now, then COVID-19 hit and delay the process for at least a year, last year really was supposed to be in 2020, supposed to be the super year for the ocean. And these high speed negotiations were a big part of that. And a lot of things obviously have been delayed. For seven negotiations were originally planned for this August, but again, delayed due to the ongoing pandemic impacting travel and gathering around the world. And so now they're going to be pushed back until early 2022. But despite these delays, negotiations are really ramping up in the momentum to get this work done, continues. You can't like log on to Twitter these days without seeing the acronym BB and J. So I'm really glad that will hopefully educate more people on what the heck that acronym of our day means. And so this really seemed as these negotiations were wrapping up ramping up a perfect time to introduce the high seas to this podcast focused on the ocean decade. Because although I would call these negotiations adjacent to the ocean decade, cousins, you know, more than direct siblings. But I think that any work that's going to impact over 60% of the ocean is a crucial thing to cover, both on this podcast and during the decade itself, because the success of many of the ideas that have already been proposed endorsed during the ocean decade will depend on the success you know, of these negotiations. So no pressure or anything, but it's it's really important work. And so I'm glad that we'll get to bring it into the context of this ocean decade cuz that's what the ocean decade supposed to do be this umbrella to talk about a lot of things underneath it. And so like I said, since this topic is a little more ocean decade cousin, like then a child or sibling of the ocean decade, this introduction represents the bulk of my knowledge on the high seas and these trade negotiations, which will take place at like I said, the BB and j conference on ocean governance, biodiversity beyond national jurisdictions. That's our acronym for the day. So I'm lucky today to have a high season bbg expert with me, Christine Gaebel to help us and me specifically understand these issues. So thank you, Christine, so much for being here today. Share your knowledge. Hi, Taylor. Yeah, thank you for having me. It's great to be here. It's so great to try to think about these really big beyond areas. And so what got you really interested in it? Like I said, that's so what is complicated sometimes for people? So what got you really jazzed and interested in working in this area?

Christine Gaebel  7:52  

Yeah, so my research focuses on the science policy interface of deep sea biodiversity governance, essentially, I asked questions such as how do we ensure that management decisions are informed by the best available knowledge and evidence? What does science tell us about sustainable management of deep sea ecosystems? And how can we enhance the uptake of science by policymakers? So a lot of these questions are completely linked to the BBN j process and things that are being discussed at the negotiations. So these are really important questions that pertain to the science policy interface. And it's this dynamic, complex space between those who undertake marine scientific research, and those who then use this evidence to inform management decisions that I'm really interested in. And so my passion for deep sea science really started as a research assistant for a project that focused on deep sea ecosystems, the horizon 2020 Atlas project, and they were involved in the negotiations. And I think that's really what got me hooked and the hook, line and sinker. I've kept my foot in there ever since?

Taylor Goelz  8:55  

Yeah, well, you're looking at someone who worked on the ocean decade for work last year, and then is still hosting a podcast about it seven months later. So I totally understand the hook, line and sinker. And I think that the, your, your interests and how you intersect in that science policy space, the BB and J and C's high C negotiations are a perfect study subject for you, you know, I think you couldn't ask for a better process to look into.

Christine Gaebel  9:21  

Yeah, definitely. It's a once in a generation opportunity, because you get to study the process from the beginning to the end, and see it all the way through into implementation stage. So I think from a purely academic perspective, the BBN j process is fascinating. From an ocean perspective, it's what we need and it couldn't have come at a more needed time. So we're really keeping our fingers crossed for early next year that we can have something finalized, because I do think this is what the ocean needs right now.

Taylor Goelz  9:55  

Yeah. And I liked it. You're talking about, you know, the different hats that you put on from an academic Making studying it's a it's a fascinating thing. But then the ocean lover and conservationists in us, like, please, I want this to work. We need this to work. It's such an important thing for, for protecting, you know, over 60% of the ocean on the planet. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. So since we've talked a little bit about, we've hinted at our economic today this pb&j. But so for listeners who aren't familiar, and to know even less about it than the intro that I was able to provide, what is BB and j in? In layman's terms?

Christine Gaebel  10:31  

Yeah. So I think that's a great place to start. So imagine a map, and you draw a line on this map 200 nautical miles from the coastline of all countries. So as you were saying, in your introduction, everything within this 200 nautical miles is part of the coastal states jurisdiction. Everything beyond is areas beyond national jurisdiction, or a, b, and J. But try to avoid as many acronyms I can hear,

Taylor Goelz  10:55  

as long as we define them. That's the important part. Because we all get stuck in our Oh, this is you can speak a whole sentence in acronyms. And so especially with the ocean decade, I found that it's really important to spell it out for everyone. And it's helped. I think you'll find it'll help you in your real life too, in terms of like, Oh, wait, how am I explaining this to people, especially at that science policy interface? But yeah, so a, b and j areas beyond national jurisdiction?

Christine Gaebel  11:21  

Yes. So this is a rather simplified explanation, and there's a lot of variation, but it gives you a pretty good idea of the vastness of the area that we're talking about the area that's going to be impacted by the BMJ treaty. So, around two thirds of the global ocean is in areas beyond national jurisdiction, and this constitutes approximately 95% of Earth's habitable space. So this is a massive area. Biodiversity beyond national jurisdiction, or BBN, J refers to all of the Marine Biological, Biological Diversity that's found in areas beyond national jurisdiction. So BBN j, so this bio diversity, it can be found on the seabed, or in the sub soil or water column. And it ranges from tiny little microbes to Coldwater corals, and even to well known and more iconic species such as whales and sharks.

Taylor Goelz  12:13  

Yeah, exactly. And I think what's what's really interesting for me is when I first learned what I had heard the BB and j acronym, but learning that it's about the biodiversity beyond national jurisdiction. So this is completely different, I think, than the way that a lot of countries do their marine management. And that's very human focused. But you know, you don't necessarily see human presence represented in this in this pb&j. And that's on purpose, right? Because, you know, it's beyond national jurisdiction. So it's all it can be a little bit more focused on the ecosystem itself and the biodiversity that's within it.

Christine Gaebel  12:45  

Yeah, definitely. But one of the important things about the pb&j negotiations, is it has human activities as well at the heart of it. So it's managing human activities and the pressures that we as a society are putting on ocean spaces further and further from our shorelines. So I think it's a about the biodiversity, and how we will manage it in a way that's sustainable, and can ensure that it that it's there for the future generations to come.

Taylor Goelz  13:17  

Yeah, I think that's a really good way to put it and thinking about the the so what you know, because there's the old adage that I loved when I was studying fishery science, you know, is that you don't manage fish, you manage people. And so you're kind of managing biodiversity when you're thinking about this, but you're also managing the people of the world, because this is something that's beyond any single country. And so, again, no pressure, no, this is no small endeavor that you've chosen to, to study. And I think it's fascinating.

Christine Gaebel  13:45  

Yeah, yeah. It's it's an very interesting process. And there are a lot of different areas that still need some working on and some fine tuning. So it's going to be interesting to see what treaty we come up with.

Taylor Goelz  14:03  

Yeah, cuz it's still kind of unknown. And these negotiations, the negotiations around the BB and J, have been ongoing, like I said, since 2017. But what are they? What are they? How did they come about? Who's talking? Why are they talking about this? You know, can you can you give us a little bit of background on on the negotiation process that you've been been observing?

Unknown Speaker  14:26  

Yeah, definitely. So I'm going to answer your question a little bit backwards. So I think understanding how these negotiations came about can help understand what they are. And so I'm going to go back to 1982.

Taylor Goelz  14:42  

Oh, wow. even further back. Okay, let's do it.

Christine Gaebel  14:45  

We're going we're going back in time here, to the adoption of the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea. So this convention is often referred to as the Constitution of the sea because it really did set up a lot of the structure for how we use and manage ocean ocean spaces. And resources today. So under the Law of the Sea ocean space is divided into these different zones that we've talked about already. So areas beyond national jurisdiction areas within. Essentially, these are just lines drawn on a map with different zones, and each zone has different obligations and regulations. Under this system, areas beyond national jurisdiction are subject to the common heritage of humankind. So essentially, this means that the high seas belong to everyone. And well, individual states cannot unilaterally regulate activities on the high seas. What we've ended up with is sectoral bodies, which have been set up to manage specific activities. So you see this with fisheries, shipping, mining, etc. The problem with this, though, is that it seems obvious, but there's a lot of gaps, what what about the activities that aren't covered by these organizations? So there's a lot of gaps both spatially and thematically. At the same time, if you're looking at a science perspective, science tells us that marine ecosystems are highly connected in space and time. So does this make sense? The way that we've managed it so far? Maybe not. But yeah, yeah. So one example I'd like to give is drawing a line on a map isn't going to stop a humpback whale, from traveling through multiple maritime zones on its journey from the waters of Iceland to the tropical waters of the Caribbean, our lines aren't going to change that. They're not going to change the movement of tiny little coral larvae that drift with the currents from within a state's national jurisdiction to beyond or vice versa.

Taylor Goelz  16:32  

Yeah, exactly. I love regional ocean planning that I just love the idea of, you know, drawing lines on a map and saying, yes, this is gonna work. But then, yeah, the biodiversity in the ocean doesn't care and climate changes, like migration patterns change and different things. It's, it all has to be pretty fluid. And so the way that it's been done, it seems a little more rigid. And so that's really interesting.

Christine Gaebel  16:58  

Yeah, I mean, from a purely management or legal perspective, of course, there needs to be lines. But I think that there's better ways that we could do it. So essentially, this is the system that we have right now. The current framework for conserving biodiversity beyond national jurisdiction is fragmented, the coverage is patchy. And we don't really have the required mechanisms to ensure sustainability of the high seas in a global context. And it doesn't match the the complex and interconnected nature of these ecosystems. And then, at the same time, BBN j is now facing increasing threats, climate induced the impacts like ocean acidification, deoxygenation, as well as the anthropogenic impacts from activities, we're talking about fisheries, shipping deep sea mining. So what we need is a better system for conserving and managing biodiversity beyond national jurisdiction. And that's what these negotiations are all about. So in this context, that's the drive for a new international legally binding treaty. And so that's the history of why we need them. And that brings it to where we are now.

Taylor Goelz  18:09  

Yes, that's that that was a great, perfect intro. And so the negotiations are framed around on four different elements. Is that right?

Christine Gaebel  18:19  

Yeah. So it's, it's considered a package deal. So we have four elements to the negotiations, first being area based management tools, including marine protected areas. So this will include identifying and designated protected areas on the high seas, which is really difficult to do right now. And at the moment, there's only a handful of cases where this has been done successfully. I mean, we have some case studies, we see the the ospar Commission in the North Atlantic and Sargasso Sea commission. So these are, these are great examples. But again, the coverage is patchy. So that first element area based management tools is going to be really important. Second, we have environmental impact assessments. So requirements for impact assessments to be carried out before activities, go ahead. And this is something that we do in our own national waters. So it seems it seems logical that if we're doing the same activities just a little bit further than then the regulations and the requirements should be the same. And then third, we have a really contentious area, and that's marine genetic resources. So a lot of debate around this right now. And that's mainly focused on the factions between freedom of the high seas and common heritage of mankind. And then lastly, capacity building and technology transfer. So ensuring that no one gets left behind, that everyone has the capacity, technology knowledge and scientific evidence required to uphold their obligations under a future treaty. So of course, those are the four and it's a package agreement. So you can't have one without the other. We have to have all four decided it on. And that's one of the big issues in the negotiations going forward is finding that that area of compromise between

Taylor Goelz  20:13  

Yeah, making sure that because you can't take just one, you have to take them all. And so making sure that you can find some sort of agreement that then that's always the hard part with negotiations like this is that, you know, if everyone leaves a little bit unhappy, then you think maybe you've been successful. But it's hard to know, you know, like, was this a successful thing? And so I guess we'll have to see after early next year, but one of the questions I have and that I think a lot of people have in terms of thinking about the high seas and enforcing this BBj. Is there a mechanism laid out for for enforcement?

Christine Gaebel  20:50  

Yeah, and that's a really good question. And this is a question that comes up a lot when we talk about the pb&j negotiations and a future pb&j Treaty. And this is one of the one of the things with the high seas is that, inherently, there's the freedom of the high seas. And this makes it very difficult to enforce. And this is one of the reasons that buy in is so important. So when you're negotiating a treaty, you want to make sure that you have support from as many nations as possible, because they are going to be the ones that are implementing it. And they are going to be the ones that, that make sure that everyone abides by the obligations and regulations that are set forward.

Taylor Goelz  21:34  

Yeah, and that's the crucial bit, because it's always that that balance between, you know, common good and common use, but that can lead to chaos. And so you want to make sure that, that you get that agreement going forward, since you know, you're not going to have the UN out in boats, you'll have the ocean trying to try to enforce this treaty.

Christine Gaebel  21:56  

Exactly. And you see it right now with unregulated and illegal fishing in the high seas. And it's a very difficult it's a it's a difficult problem to overcome. And of course, technology has a big role to play in this. But then that ties directly into that fourth element capacity building and transfer marine technology ensuring that everybody has the resources and the capacity to to not only follow the to abide by the obligations that are set out in the future treaty, but to play a part in regulating.

Taylor Goelz  22:34  

Yeah, we want people to be able to have ownership of of their share of the common space and be able to come to the table table equally. And I think that we've we've gone through some of this, and I had hinted about the issue about the so what you know, in the introduction, but I'd love to hear your perspective on why these negotiations are important. And you know, because a lot of people will never visit these areas beyond national jurisdiction, they've maybe never even realized the fact that that these are places of the ocean that someone is trying to manage and get a treaty around. So why what's the so what for you behind the pb&j?

Christine Gaebel  23:13  

Yeah, that's it? That's a really good question. And so it wasn't that long ago that the common perception was these deep sea ecosystems were empty and void of life. So this is something actually that's quite recent in our history, that we realized that, wait a minute, they're these ecosystems are rich with biodiversity. We're still discovering new species. And I find this incredible. So for example, through its duration, the Atlas project discovered 12, new deep sea species. And this is just one research project in one area of the global ocean. Can you imagine how many other species are left up there and discovered it? I think that I saw a stat the other day, and it was that more than 80% of the ocean remains unexplored. And essentially, this means that we know more about the surface of the moon than we do about the deep sea. How crazy is that?

Taylor Goelz  24:13  

Yeah. And that's been a huge part. And that's where I love the actual interconnection between BB and J and some of the ocean decade things that are that are happening because mapping the entire ocean is one of the goals of the ocean decade to get more data. And I think that's going to be such an essential piece. And so the pb&j negotiations feed directly into that because protecting these areas and then allowing us to map them you know, so that we can actually understand what it's like and see these species before they go. You know that we don't have deep sea species that goes extinct before we can identify them or see them.

Christine Gaebel  24:49  

Well, that's exactly it. And that's what's happening deep sea species are going extinct before we even are able to identify and classify them. It's It's a sad truth. And it's not just about the species and identifying species. I mean, that's always an exciting thing. But these ecosystems are important, and they are important for the well being of humankind. And it seems difficult to understand because they're so remote, but they support vital ecosystem services from food security to regulating global climate. With cop 26 coming up the climate negotiations, this connection between the climate and ocean seems to be more higher on people's agenda. And as it should be, because the oceans absorb 93% of the heat generated by anthropogenic carbon dioxide emissions. That is no small number.

Taylor Goelz  25:43  

Yeah, the ocean is is having its moment in in climate negotiations, I think for for the first time, and it's been a little delayed. But I think that it's that it's really an important piece to finally be recognizing and speaking about kind of delays. So since it's a shame that the negotiations got pushed back even further, because of the ongoing covid 19 pandemic, but what are the delegations doing in this Meantime, what does a lead up to a negotiation kind of look like?

Christine Gaebel  26:11  

Yeah, so there's been a lot of intersessional work, and it's really promising to see. So even though the negotiations have been put on pause, until the the COVID pandemic allows for travel, and it for safety to get together in such large groups as it would require to have another negotiating session. We've had a lot of intersessional work. People from the academic side, such as me and my team here at the University of Edinburgh, have been working on policy briefs, getting in touch with different delegations trying to make the links, identifying areas of convergence, where what areas of the treaty still need a little bit more discussion, and how can science help with forwarding that discussion? So I think during this time, this intersessional work has been positive, of course, but it doesn't. It doesn't replace getting into the into the negotiating session and hashing things out.

Taylor Goelz  27:12  

Yeah, it's so funny that I never thought about before I started doing international work, all of the work that has to go into getting you into that room. And so understanding all the background and all the like intersessional things that happened is a really like cool behind the scenes piece that I think a lot of people don't realize, you just see, maybe see a clip, sometimes someone at the UN speaking and you think about all the hundreds of people who they probably had to consult in order to write that two lines of text is is really funny. Um, so as you're reading over the tree, though, how long is the BBN j tree? How many pages is it?

Christine Gaebel  27:50  

Yes, sir. It's been condensed actually. So we what we're working on right now is the revised draft text. And this is really helpful. I think it's 4040, some pages, maybe 45 pages, I think, oh, wow, this has been fine tuned and edited. And that's sort of the working document. That's what delegations are going into the negotiations with in their hands. And that's the text that is, is really being negotiated at the moment. And we are we are going into the fourth and final scheduled negotiating session. And so document like this is really good. You can also go on to the UN website. And they provide all of the different comments that were made by different delegations. So you can really map out where we are right now in the negotiations and what parties are leaning towards what, what elements and what sides of the arguments? Yeah, I

Taylor Goelz  28:50  

think it's just fascinating to that one, you can track all that different things that I imagine like a March Madness basketball board, but full of pb&j negotiations, which might be a big nerd alert, but also the fact that the entire High Seas is going to be governed by 40 ish pages of really wonderfully written thought over text is kind of beautiful in a way.

Christine Gaebel  29:11  

Yeah. And, you know, I'm really hopeful that we what we end up with is a pb&j treaty that is strong and resembles what we have right now in this draft text. And of course, there's still so many things in brackets, meaning that they're not decided yet. And the different options that we have, you see varying levels of teeth, as you may say. And, of course, I'm sitting here, fingers crossed for the stronger options, but what we end up with could be very different. And it all does come down to this this final set of negotiations.

Taylor Goelz  29:50  

Yeah, that the game is on the game is afoot, you know, Sherlock Holmes would say but I think it's really heartening. The fact that So much time has been spent on this. And we'll have to, you know, report back from March and get to see or March or early next year, whenever the session finally happens. Well, that would be interesting. Yeah, we can do a post mortem on, on negotiations.

Christine Gaebel  30:17  

Yeah, yeah. And I would hope that I'd be able to come back with some really good news and Fingers crossed.

Taylor Goelz  30:23  

Yeah. Yeah, that's the really cool thing about this podcast format. I'm so excited to be able to some of the people that have already talked to her that I plan to talk to, you know, do follow ups and get to see how these things evolve over the course of the next 10 years. And what progress really happens over the course of this ocean decade. And so it's interesting, because this is this podcast has been a little bit different than some of the other ones I've hosted. Because I usually start with asking people, you know, what's your journey to the ocean decade, but I feel like we really had to get into the BB and j pneus. of it for people to understand, oh, like, and I think it's a really great thing to not be talking directly about an ocean decade thing always to really get to understand how far reaching the decade can be. That it's not just about who is you know, applying for funding under this or like, who has gotten endorsed for this, but it's supposed to be an umbrella to be able to talk about whatever underneath and so love your kind of insight on how how you see BB and j linked with the ocean decade. So what are some common themes? How How can people who either No wonder no the other understand their intersection?

Christine Gaebel  31:29  

Yeah, I think there's a lot of links between the BBN j process and the future pb&j treaty with the ocean decade. It first I mean, quite obviously, is the ocean decade it calls for the science we need for the ocean we want. And I think the equivalent for the pb&j negotiations is the treaty we need for the ocean. We want.

Taylor Goelz  31:50  

Get those bumper stickers, give them to all the delegates in early next year

Christine Gaebel  31:54  

t shirts. Yeah, I think there's lots of opportunities for that that slogan, it's a it's a catchy one.

Taylor Goelz  32:01  

It's catchy. There you go. You missed your calling in advertising or something. Yeah.

Christine Gaebel  32:05  

But I do. I do see this as that. The one point that's similar between these two is that the boat the ocean that we want, it's this ocean that we don't have right now, this ocean that we see that could be possible. If we take the right steps in a timely manner. And the ocean decade, it's this 10 years. I mean, I hope it's not going to be 10 years to finalize and start implementing the BBN de treaty. But with that moving forward, making progress.

Taylor Goelz  32:37  

Yeah, and there's so many synergies in, in kind of researching this, that the the decade goals link really well with what the BBj is trying to do. And that it's kind of Vivi and Jay is a great poster child. I think in terms of trying to define that ocean, we want that everyone is individually, I think trying to do that within the ocean decade. And these, the goals and the challenges have helped try to collectively do that. But I think the BBj in the negotiations, the active effort to try to make the ocean better is kind of a beautiful example of the ocean decade. You know, feeling at work?

Christine Gaebel  33:14  

Yeah, definitely. And, you know, with the ocean decade, you have these overarching objectives. And it tells you exactly, it lays out this beautiful roadmap of these, how what the ocean would look like if it was our ideal ocean. And when you even start to dissect these individuals, societal goals. You see, they're linked right on with the same goals and objectives that underlie the BBN j negotiations and a future pb&j Treaty. And it makes sense, because areas beyond national jurisdiction make up the majority of the global ocean. So it wouldn't make sense to have these as two separate objectives or goals. But they do go hand in hand to achieving those and we want and the BBN j negotiations are a tool to meet some of these societal goals. So for example, this societal Goal number two, and that's a healthy and resilient ocean where marine ecosystems are mapped and protected. And I mean, just reading that kind of gives me chills, that's a that is the ocean we want. That's the ocean, I want at least. And this directly links with some of the tools that could be provided by a future pb&j agreement, such as area based management tools, things that can help us sustainably use and conserve biodiversity in the high seas, environmental impact assessments to kind of regulate some of human activities to make sure that our our actions aren't too destructive, where we destroy biodiversity that will never come back or never come back to its full form.

Taylor Goelz  34:47  

Yeah, that it it links beautifully and understanding in doing these episodes and working on the OSHA decade. I've really understood that that that pronoun of we is so Important in all of these tag night lines, so the science we need for the ocean we want and so it's all these conversations we're having is defining who that we is, you know, who was the collective we that is going towards this? And so how can we bring more stakeholders to the table, bring more perspectives, and define a progressive weed that's pushing towards a common destination, because like you said, it would be really bad if the, the underlying ideas behind the BBj were completely different than the ocean decade, because then you have to wheeze, you know, going in opposite directions. And so the more that we can get alignment, and even if everyone doesn't come under the umbrella of the ocean, Nicky, which I don't think is necessary, but just in aligning force that we can, you know, we collectively couldn't figure out the direction we want to go.

Christine Gaebel  35:48  

Yeah, definitely. And with this whole, who is the we, I mean, arguably, it's everyone, that the health and status of the ocean affects all of us in some way. And I think, again, this also ties back in with this, the importance of science. So of course, is the ocean we want, but then it's the science we need. And the science we need isn't just from an individual or an individually individual nation, is really a collective effort that's needed. The science that we need is from everyone. And I think that also comes back to this who is the we? It's everyone.

Taylor Goelz  36:26  

Yeah. And I think the one other really crucial thing, going back to what you were talking about the very beginning, you know that you work on this science policy interface, and that I maybe it's just because I'm a policy geek too, but thinking about, you know, there's the policy we need as well. And that's, you know, science can't happen in a vacuum anymore, that it's just doing pure science, for science sake is I don't, I don't think it's a complete thing of the past. But it's way less common, I think, than when, you know, we were just able to try to, you know, just starting to understand these systems that now you have to think about that. So what and policy is what really helps you think about the so what of what you're doing?

Christine Gaebel  37:09  

Yeah, definitely more and more, you see big international projects that are based around finding solutions to some of the biggest global problems that we're facing.

Taylor Goelz  37:18  

So yeah, we really see these linkages between pb&j and ocean decade. And, and just, you've had some time, I think, to reflect on on those intersections. But then, from your perspective, I'm really interested in understanding, I asked this to all of my guests, what would be a successful decade, according to you, you know, we're talking, we've talked about this collective we and trying to define things going forward, but the definition of success can vary person to person. So what do you think is, would be a successful decade?

Christine Gaebel  37:48  

I think, from, from my perspective, and based on my background in the science policy interface, a successful decade would mean enhance cooperation, and coordination of efforts. So enhance cooperation and collaboration across regions, and across disciplines, between scientists and policymakers, to not only produce the data we need, but to increase the dissemination of it, and the uptake of science in a way that's meaningful, and effective. I think there's a lot of science that is being undertaken across the globe. And one of the, one of the important things about the decade will be connecting and collating all of the results in a meaningful way to make them impactful.

Taylor Goelz  38:36  

Yeah, that's gonna be I'm really excited at the very end, it's kind of like your, the decade is like you're making a recipe, you know, and you're putting all these pieces together. And then you see what, what you get at the end, you know, what your final meal ends up being?

Christine Gaebel  38:56  

Yeah, definitely. And it's all too easy to get stuck on this the science we need thing without realizing we can have all the science in the world. But if we don't, if we don't use it properly, then what's the point? And seriously, yeah, so And again, I have a focus on the science policy interface. So I recognize my own inherent bias when I say this, but

Taylor Goelz  39:20  

you're better than most people then recognizing your own inherent bias.

Unknown Speaker  39:23  

But it is about how we use the science. It's not just about collecting it and letting it collect dust in the storage room of universities around the world. It's about getting that science into the hands of the people who can use it to inform decisions that will create the ocean we want.

Taylor Goelz  39:41  

It's slightly ironic thinking that you're we're sitting having this conversation and you're at the University of Edinburgh, which has, you know, these beautiful collections of sites sitting in, in, in libraries and beautiful things. But yeah, the more proactive and forward thinking they're on on servers now. So

Christine Gaebel  39:57  

yeah, you know, this is probably a topic And a bit off topic. But there's so much that can be done with this collection of science as well. It's not all read, of course, we need to collect new data. But I think if there's something that the pandemic has taught us, while we're all stuck on shore, just really hoping to get back out to sea and collect new data is part of making the most of what what science we do have also involves using previous collected data in a meaningful way. So I think there's a lot of things that we can do that we already have the means to do we just need that push, which the push in the form of the decade.

Taylor Goelz  40:37  

I love it. Yeah, that was it was interesting, you know, starting the decade after, you know, last year that launching it this year, it's like, okay, we're not going to be able to meet in person when we're launching this big international thing in the middle of the pandemic, still, but it's this kind of thinking, and it's the building back bluer, you know, that needs to happen to like, we there needs to be reflection from this time. It's something horrible has happened and is continuing to happen. But you need to think about how can we not have this happen again, and ocean has solutions for future pandemics, possibly that there's all sorts of things that the ocean can do for us in the next 10 years and beyond?

Christine Gaebel  41:17  

Yeah, and you know, just to tie this back to pb&j. There's a lot of things we can learn from deep sea species, in terms of medicinal uses. And this is why it's so important that we put these regulations in place to ensure that it's not just a free for all go to the deep sea and take what you want. Because the oceans play a big part, and will continue to play a big part in our day to day life. And I think that this is deep sea sprawl, I guess. And we're just creeping in more and more to the deep sea.

Taylor Goelz  41:53  

Yeah, exactly. And one thing that's that's fun about the decade and looking forward, and and thinking backwards to is how the people working in this space will evolve over time. And so you like myself fallen under the umbrella of an early career ocean professional and ecop, someone less than 10 years into their career. So I'd love your perspective on what do you think are the areas in which he cops can most contribute to the decade in the next 10 years ahead?

Christine Gaebel  42:21  

Yeah, I think it's, it's an exciting time to be an E cup right now. And it's an opportunity, especially right now, in the pandemic, where everything is turned virtual, there's been a lot more opportunities that I've found to connect with fellow e cups. Yeah. And the ocean decade is really fueling this as well, there was the the E cup day that I helped moderate one of the time slots for this, but he cups together from a cross the Atlantic Ocean, to showcase the research that's being done. And I think this really highlighted to me that he cups are integral at all stages of achieving the ocean. We want the ocean decade objectives from data collection, policy, integration management, and that's the good thing about e cops. It's not just early career researchers, it's socially professionals

Taylor Goelz  43:11  

to end are the most like transdisciplinary interdisciplinary, ocean trained professionals, I think, in the history of the Ocean Sciences.

Christine Gaebel  43:19  

Well, that's it. I mean, we want to be more interdisciplinary. It's one of those things, it's not an easy thing to do. It's not something you can snap your fingers. And all of a sudden, you're an expert at science and policy, you need to put work into it. And I think more and more with the younger generation of ocean professionals, this is just coming more and more natural. The courses that are being offered in universities are interdisciplinary more and more. And I also think we're one of the generations that's going to live with the implications and consequences of inaction. So we have the motivation to make these connections with different disciplines in order to find solutions to these complex problems that we're facing. They require different disciplines. And we're the generation that is linking together to find solutions.

Taylor Goelz  44:13  

Yeah, I completely agree with with everything you were saying, especially the the opportunities that have come up in this virtual time is that, you know, we've been able to connect with people from all over the world that we wouldn't have otherwise had opportunities, you know, like that. I don't think that you would have been able to moderate a session all across the Atlantic, you know, in a different time. You know, it's just all these different opportunities that come about that I think the cops are really taking advantage of for the first time and really jumping on the possibilities of, of what we can contribute for the for not for the very first time, but more so than we have in the past.

Christine Gaebel  44:52  

Yeah, definitely. And I remember a conversation that I was having not too long ago about how can he cops participate In the BMJ negotiations, how can we become involved? Because it seems this really shut off process. And this can also relate to the ocean decade. And I think the answer I got was just to do it. Which it seems an obvious answer, but it's just not to not to be too afraid. And not to let the your relative Lee,

Taylor Goelz  45:24  

there's the second guessing and the and the the doubt and the imposter syndrome that I think is pervasive throughout young people in any career. But I think it's especially pervasive in Ocean Sciences. And so I think it's good that we're fighting past that. And the fact that we're able to all talk to each other about it helps to

Christine Gaebel  45:45  

that forming a community. And I also think maybe moving away from in academia as well, for the for the early career researchers, it's slowly moving away from this, publish or perish, idea. And it's moving into this idea of recognizing academic achievements beyond publications. And one of them is policy integration, and public engagement. These are the kinds of activities that are going to be integral to achieving the ocean decade objectives. papers are good, but we need to make sure the messages get out there. And I think for the for E cups, this is especially true, where it is a different academic setting than what our supervisors were part of.

Taylor Goelz  46:30  

Exactly. It's a whole new world out there. And I hope that BB and j will be a big part of it. So I'm really excited that we were able to go into some of the basics today about what's what's happening. And I'm excited to get to have you back on after negotiations to do kind of a post mortem of, of what happened and what the the agreements are going to be. And so can you tell our audience where they can go to learn more about the BBj negotiations in the lead up to some negotiations next spring?

Christine Gaebel  47:02  

Yeah, definitely. So there's a lot of resources available out there. I'm part of the BBN j working group of the deep ocean stewardship initiative or dosi. And dosi has been involved in the BBN j process since the beginning, both at the negotiations and also intersectionally. So their website has lots of great resources. I think it's dosi dash project.org. And you can go back watch, webinars, read policy briefs, other helpful resources. And of course, you can go on to the BBN j negotiation negotiations official website. So www un.org slash BBN J. And that gives you an overview of the process and where we're going.

Taylor Goelz  47:42  

Great. Thank you so much, Christine, for being here today and sharing your your expertise and your science policy geekiness with me as well, another science policy geek. So, and thanks for helping us understand how this connects to the ocean decade and I love that we were able to kind of do a different kind of show today. So I appreciate your your time and your knowledge.

Christine Gaebel  48:00  

Thanks for having me, Taylor. This has been really great. And I hope to come back shortly with some good news from the outcome of the BBN chain negotiations.

Taylor Goelz  48:10  

Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed indeed. Thanks, everyone.