How and Why The Pew Charitable Trusts Protects Coastal Wetlands Around the Globe

Peter Ravella  0:00  
Hello, everybody and welcome to the American shoreline podcast. This is Peter rivella. co host of the show

Tyler Buckingham  0:06  
and this is Tyler Buckingham, the other co host,

Peter Ravella  0:09  
Tyler, I would bet. Virtually everyone who's going to listen to this podcast is has heard of the Pew Charitable Trusts.

Tyler Buckingham  0:16  
I would agree with that.

Peter Ravella  0:17  
I think I hear it every night when I'm watching, you know, PBS. I believe they're a sponsor, but an incredible organization that's been around since 1948. And today, we're going to learn about what the Pew Charitable Trust is doing in the realm of ocean and coastal conservation initiatives. They have a great program, incredible portfolio of issues that they tackle, and support and work on. And we've got some really great guests to introduce us to Pew in the ocean and coastal universe of pew.

We're going to be joined today by Stacey Baez. And she is an officer in the coastal wetlands and coral reefs project at the Pew Charitable Trust, a scientist and expert on coastal ecology and habitat. Also joining us is Courtney Durham, and she is a policy expert, a graduate of the Yale School of the environment, that place I am very fond of. And she is with the she's an officer with the international conservation unit and a policy expert. So we're going to get a chance to learn about Pew from two professionals that I'm looking forward to,

Tyler Buckingham  1:31  
I think I think our listeners can see where we're going from a mile away. Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to do a two step. Yeah, a two step we're going to learn about the science paint the picture of what's going on out there. What Pew is working on from a research and science perspective. And then we're going to learn about what the policy advocacy and work that Pew is doing around the world. Yeah, this is a global effort, and I'm looking forward to learning more but before we get into it, let's have a quick word from our sponsors.

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Peter Ravella  2:50  
Well, Stacey Baez, thank you very much for joining us, Courtney Durham, thank you very much for taking time to be on the American shoreline podcast. It's a real privilege for us to have have you on as guests.

Stacey Baez  3:01  
Thank you happy to be here.

Courtney Durham  3:03  
Thrilled to be here.

Peter Ravella  3:04  
Well, you know, as I like to say, with our programs, what we'd really like to do to start these things off is to introduce you to our audience so they know who they are listening to. And if you would be so kind Stacey, could you introduce yourself to our audience, what your background is, and how you came to work at pew.

Stacey Baez  3:26  
Okay, so I'm an oceanographer, and I started off my career researching juveniles spotted seatrout on seagrass beds and Chesapeake Bay. And during this research, I fell in love with seagrass habitat. So I'm originally from the Caribbean. And I actually had never seen a seagrass Meadow before this time. And there's just something so magical about them. And at that time, we knew how important they were for coastal communities, specifically towards supporting healthy fisheries. I actually started my research career in fisheries and then decided to shift focus to seagrass. You know, sea grasses are so important of fish health. 20% of the world's largest fisheries depend on seagrass habitats. So if you're eating fish, there's a good probability that that fits spend some time on a seagrass meadow. So I eventually moved away from academic research into the non profit conservation space and I worked on global shark conservation. I helped establish shark sanctuaries in the Pacific and in the Caribbean. I also helped establish large scale marine protected areas. And now fast forward a few years I am back full circle to coastal ecosystems, working for Pew where I managed the research portfolio for the coastal wetland and coral reefs project. And for those of you who may not know the term coastal wetlands, these are mine groves, seagrass and salt marshes. And since my days as a researcher, the scientific understanding of coastal habitats have grown tremendously. Specifically, we know more about the efficiency in sequestering carbon and helping communities adapt to climate change. And commonly you will hear these ecosystems referred to as blue carbon ecosystems. And so our project supports countries interested in protecting these coastal wetlands as part of their action in building resilience to climate change.

Tyler Buckingham  5:36  
Man, that sounds so cool. And I am really like, this is gonna be I can just already tell me a great show. But Stacy before before we get into this, the substance I got to ask. Yeah, you know, what was, you know, you started with fisheries, your interest was in fish. Fish come from the seagrass meadow. Okay, I get that connection. But But what is your initial connection with the coastal ecosystem? Where you, you mentioned, you're from the Caribbean? What's your what's your initial connection there?

Stacey Baez  6:12  
That's a good question. I mean, so although I'm from Trinidad, we have beautiful beaches. I actually didn't spend much time at the beach. And also, I didn't know how to swim.

Tyler Buckingham  6:23  
Wow.

Stacey Baez  6:24  
So, you know, it's just counterintuitive that islanders have this very strong connection to the ocean. I didn't. I came to the US to to be a medical doctor and then wander off into the ocean.

Tyler Buckingham  6:40  
Well, but can you can you explain how you wandered off? What happened?

Peter Ravella  6:44  
What was the inspiration for that?

Tyler Buckingham  6:45  
Yeah, what what caused you to wander away from medicine? And yeah, fishery science. I mean, Surely there's some interesting movement.

Stacey Baez  6:53  
I, in my first year in college, I got an internship with the EPA, and I did the internship, because it was something to do during the summer time. And we flew around in a helicopter collecting water samples from New York, all the way down to Delaware on some days. And New York at the time was going through this drought. And so the coastal environment was just this pristine, like Caribbean blue. This is no runoff. And I saw a school of rays, that must have been like 1000 rays. And that was it. Like I, I, I couldn't go back to doing pre med after that.

Peter Ravella  7:42  
Well, you know, I can't tell you how many people that we've had on the podcast over the last couple of years, and who talk about that kind of inspirational experience of the ocean and, and connecting to it on a very emotional and and visceral level is an inspiring space. Courtney, you're formerly, I think, a graduate of the Yale School of the environment. Tell us about your background and how you came to pew.

Courtney Durham  8:14  
Certainly, so I'm Courtney Durham, I am what I would call an unabashed policy wonk. Right, I've been working on global climate policy for the better part of my career. Starting out in my career, I was I was actually focused on on global governance issues writ large. And I rather quickly made the realization that climate change was all encompassing of all the issues that I cared about most right. It was multilateralism it was poverty eradication, it was supporting women and children trade, the list just goes on. There were so many linkages across subject areas. And I just was fascinated. And so I really started to understand that that a global challenge, like climate change, was one that was going to require the kind of strategic thinking transformative innovation, things that I found exciting. Personally, the global challenge of climate change, of course, necessitates a global solution. Because, you know, those emissions don't stay within the lines on maps that we draw, or the impacts aren't isolated to those who generated them even. So really, the fate of our entire planetary system, all the things that we care about, is dependent on the action or inaction of our human society today. So So really, it was from that that that angle of being a love a lover of multilateralism, and collective action, frankly, that I really took to working on climate and conservation issues, and it's been a real passion of mine and work that I feel lucky to be doing, frankly, I You know, the focus now is on helping policymakers think through actions they could be taking to safeguard society's nature, our common Living Planet. There really is a whole menu of climate and conservation policy options, so to speak for countries and policymakers to consider options that keep healthy economies and societies at the forefront. But what's really important for us to remember is that for those things, you really need to have a healthy environment, underpinning all of that, and very usefully, and what's exciting about this work is that coastal wetlands can be a part of that equation. I grew up not far from the Chesapeake Bay, where I would go crabbing with my father in those salt marshes spent many of my my formative years hunting for sand dollars amongst the mangroves of South Florida. More recently worked in the South Pacific and spent every waking moment that I could snorkeling in the sea grasses off of Fiji's coasts. So it's fascinating to me at a very intimate level. And it's just been a real a real treasure to be able to take something so personally motivating and be able to work on it as a career.

Tyler Buckingham  11:18  
I think we're in good hands. Peter, I think there's gonna be a good one.

Peter Ravella  11:21  
Yeah, I do, too. And, Courtney, I like the emphasis on the on the multilateral transactions that are necessary to effectively respond to something like climate change, or to conserve ocean and coastal resources. That's the complexity of these issues. And Tyler, and I like to think of climate change, we talk about it as being a people problem, not a science problem, because fundamentally, we have to figure out how to coordinate and work together across an incredible spectrum of interest to do this. Well, can you talk a little bit about that that multilateral approach and the skill set that goes into effectively bringing people to a different maybe understanding or action when it comes to climate change?

Courtney Durham  12:09  
So I would say that I think that there's a recognition growing now that the cost of inaction is far, far too high. It's it's much greater than the cost of action. And we know that time, there is a serious layer of urgency, time is of the essence in effectively addressing the climate crisis. And you're right, I think, in many ways, the sciences there even in some some cases, that tech advancements are there, what what really is needed is, is frankly, the political will. And I would, you know, I would encourage us to take a walk down memory lane, to 2015 and the Paris agreement, which is really where things began to change, right. It was after decades of hard hard work from the global environmental movement, frankly, that negotiations were finally gaveled right, I was in the room when when the final gavel came down, and the crowd of negotiators and civil society cheered out. And it is still so crisp, in my mind, because it was such a significant agreement. It was where that political will really rose to the occasion. And it was a truly incredible achievement. It's a historic agreement, because it's the first international agreement to unite every nation, not just some every nation around their responsibilities to take action on climate. It was also a unanimous agreement, right, one of the first international agreement of any kind to have that many signatories approve that quickly, with consensus. And, and you know, the overall goal of the Paris Agreement really is to make sure that global temperature does not exceed two degrees Celsius, hopefully not not even 1.5 degrees Celsius Today we're at point eight degrees Celsius, give or take. So the clock is ticking. There are serious changes that we need to be making but what I feel encouraged that we finally have a place for for policy action and a place where political will really is being stewarded by a lot of countries and frankly, you know, the the the value of coastal wetlands in a suite of other policy options is also growing in prominence as policymakers are thinking about, you know, what, what kind of action should I be prioritizing to help address climate change?

Tyler Buckingham  14:34  
I'm excited to learn more of that. But I'd like to learn a little bit about the science of coastal wetlands, you know, thinking globally now. Stacy, would you talk a little bit about the first of all what what coastal wetlands are you open your opening you kind of gave an overview but let's get let's talk about this globally. And why they are of course so important around the globe that they be protected. And conserved.

Stacey Baez  15:01  
Okay, so that's a big, that's a big question. The coastal wetlands fringe most of our shores worldwide with the exception of the Antarctic, so they are mangroves, seagrass, and salt marshes. So some are found in the tropics, these are typically mangroves, salt marshes are found towards the temperate regions, and then sea grasses are pretty much everywhere except the Antarctic. So depending on where you are, you could have a mix of two or one of these ecosystems. And the intersection of coastal wetlands and climate is a very dynamic research space. It wasn't until about 1015 years ago that scientists started looking at the capacity of these ecosystems to sequester carbon. Previously, the bulk of scientific inquiry into carbon sequestration was centered around forest terrestrial forests, which makes sense, you know, we think about the forest drawing down carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, you know, into, into their trunks and leaves and into the soil. And there's so much research now across mangroves, sea grasses and salt marshes. And these research findings sort of fall into a couple different buckets. So the first is biodiversity. coastal wetlands are highly productive, they create habitat that would not exist. Otherwise, for numerous species, just think of any mangrove forest and you could, you know, just imagine the diversity of species found it

Tyler Buckingham  16:40  
I mean, it's a forest, you know, that term for us, it's really akin to a forest.

Stacey Baez  16:46  
And yeah, they're just, you know, forest that exists on on shorelines, in fact, they they live where other trees would would find toxic, they live in this inundated area with low oxygen in the soil, like most trees can't live there. And mangroves have adapted to that coastal environment. And they create their routes or habitat for numerous species, you know, lemon sharks, turtles, I mean, it's just a very vibrant ecosystem. And same for sea grasses on salt marsh

Tyler Buckingham  17:21  
coming next. I don't I don't want to cut you off. Mid mid thought so. So finish finish what you were saying there?

Stacey Baez  17:29  
No, no, no, you can feel free to cut me off.

Tyler Buckingham  17:32  
Well, I just when I think of the coastline, I think of you know, the land water edge. And when we're talking about these habitats in the past, let's see, we're talking about marsh. We're talking about mangroves. And we're talking about sea grasses. Right. And when I when we when we talk about those things, you know, of course, there's this carbon component and habitat component. But there's also been this like, storm resiliency component that we've talked a lot about on this network. And what we're hearing you talk about this, Stacy, from the scientific perspective, and also from the global perspective, I confess, I don't, I haven't really thought about these, these wetland these these areas from the global perspective. But it's striking to think about how this is these are areas where water and land the it's the interface, and it's changing all the time there. And I'm just wondering if you know, if you would describe that a little bit and why that dynamic relationship between where the water is, in reference to the land is important.

Stacey Baez  18:48  
Yeah, I mean, coastal environments are just necessarily dynamic environments, they experience changes, not just from the ocean, but from online coastal development. In fact, our coastal wetlands are among the most threatened ecosystems on the planet. We've lost something like 50% of our mangroves, and, you know, sea grasses, we only started monitoring our seagrass habitats in the late 1800s. And since then, it's estimated that 30% of it has been lost. So, you know, it's a super dynamic environment, because 200 million people live close to a coastline. And, and so it's just that balance between, you know, having intact ecosystems and having, you know, management that not only supports the protection of ecosystem but also supports people. So it's just that type of balance. And you actually touched on the second bucket that I was going to raise, which was helping communities to adapt to climate change because you mentioned shoreline protection. Right. And, you know, mangroves alone provide 65 billion US dollars in global flood protection benefits. So when you lose mangroves, you lose that, that flood protection and it will cost the economy, you know, billions to show up that green infrastructure that was lost.

Peter Ravella  20:27  
It's definitely a significant contributor to shoreline stability in the areas fortunate and fortunate enough in the United States to have mangroves as we do here in Texas, in the south southern part of the state and over, of course, in Florida. I'm curious, for both of you, I'm curious about why pew. Stacey, you're a PhD expert scientist, when I think about where those where that career path leads, Pew Charitable Trust would not come to mind for me. And Courtney, as a policy expert, I kind of wonder if you could explain a little bit about the Pew Charitable Trust what this organization does. I've always thought of it as a big granting organization. But in fact, there's substance to these programs here. Could you explain that, Courtney, maybe starting with you? What is it about Pew? What does it do? And how do you fit into that universe of action?

Courtney Durham  21:32  
Of course. So Pew what's really attractive to me about about Pew is a few things, right? One, it's the commitment to science based decision making, communicating fact based bipartisan policies and research to benefit society, nature, this the shared planet that that we all are on. And I think another really useful role that Pew has been playing not just in generating that new song science or policy recommendations, but also being kind of a neutral arbiter being willing to be a convening power to get stakeholders in a room to understand shared challenges to work towards shared benefits, and really in a way that helps promote a healthy and and functioning planet that is inclusive of of humans at just as much as nature.

Peter Ravella  22:35  
Sounds a little like EDF, I have to say,

Tyler Buckingham  22:39  
yeah, there's some similarity there. I think,

Peter Ravella  22:42  
Stacy, what, what is it about Pew that that is important to you professionally? And personally? Why did you end up there? What's the portfolio that you handle?

Stacey Baez  22:54  
So you know, as Courtney mentioned, pew, is driven by science. And so the organization and across all our projects, and the organization has had 30 years of marine conservation work, fisheries, marine protected areas. Now, coastal wetlands is the transfer of scientific information towards the policymaking process. And for me, as a scientist, I see myself as you know, I'm standing on a bridge, I'm taking, you know, hard data or hard research and packaging it in a way that's accessible to a policymaker. And I think Pew does that really efficiently. That flow of scientific data that feeds into the policy, this decision making process?

Peter Ravella  23:46  
That's really interesting. And Courtney, it must be helped me understand this, because I don't really know how this works. From the perspective of the Pew Charitable Trust, you're engaging with decision makers, policymakers around the world, both on us and on a scientific level and also on a policy level. Tell us about the work that you actually do. What does that mean? What is a project that you're engaged in? How do you do it? And I have to say, I'm curious about this, because I had the impression that Pew writes checks for grants and things and that's what you guys do. And that's clearly a misunderstanding of po So help us understand an actual initiative or project and how it works.

Courtney Durham  24:30  
Sure. So I think because coastal wetlands themselves, we have just laid out have so so so many values for so many people, it really has turned out to be a sweet spot for policymakers. If you're thinking like a policymaker, right, who's who's trying to address climate change, there's a few things that is that are going to be attractive about coastal wetlands and taking action in that way. Right. It's, it's easily deployable. They exist now and we want to keep them in exists. Since protecting and restoring coastal wetlands can be relatively low cost when when thinking about other abatements or sectors. And as we discussed, they really benefit local communities in terms of, you know, physical safety, generation of economic value and livelihoods, healthy food webs, protecting infrastructure assets along the shore, there's just so much they have going for them. So what you realize is that not only do they have a serious conservation value, they have a significant policy window, right. And so you're a policymaker, or other invested stakeholder who recognize not only what is valuable about those places, but now you're thinking about how you should go about developing and implementing policies to protect or restore those places. And that's where this project has has really been incepted. Right. So it's all about using the Paris agreement as the policy vehicle to get the protection and restoration activities in several several countries across the world. So the Paris Agreement is different in that it's a bottom up approach. What that means is that every nation gets to decide what actions they will take to tackle climate change. And these are done through things called nationally determined contributions or NDCs. Basically, they are a country's domestic actions that they submit to the UN as their contribution to tackling the broader issue of climate change based on their respective context capacities, capabilities. Got it. The hope is that then when we when we aggregate all of these varied actions from country to country, to reduce their emissions, adapt to climate impacts, build resilience for the future, right? The hope is that together, we will be able on aggregate to reverse avert the worst of the climate crisis. And very importantly, these plans are required to be updated every five years and be more progressive than the previous five years. So again, policymakers right now are thinking through where they need to be prioritizing actions and delivering on it. So our work at Pew is really about supporting countries and policymakers who have coastal wetlands to include them in their climate plans under the Paris Agreement.

Peter Ravella  27:20  
Okay, let me remind me again, what an NDC is.

Courtney Durham  27:26  
That's an a nationally determined contribution and easier way to think about it outside of the wanke is just what a country intends to do to combat climate change domestically.

Tyler Buckingham  27:35  
I just want to I just want to make one thing very clear. And that is, we are very pro wonk.

we will continue to call them NDCs. Henceforth,

Peter Ravella  27:44  
it makes sense it what you just explained, helped me a lot understand what you're doing, it seems to me, first of all, I would say that being in the room when the Paris Climate accord was ratified, must have been an extraordinary moment. It's a historical moment. That must have been an incredible experience. And it seems like the work you're doing here is really in that implementation of the Paris Climate Agreement. And in particular, the development and supporting, I guess, countries and communities to develop these NDCs, these national determined contributions to, I guess, carbon emission reduction, is that the sphere that you're operating in is in that interface, that implementation of the Paris Climate Agreement? Is that what you're trying to get what you guys are working on?

Courtney Durham  28:39  
Yeah. So insofar as part of implementing Paris is updating your NDC is every five years. So it's a significant effort that countries need to go through understanding how far they came to meeting their previous NDC. That the be them emissions reduction targets, be them other targets about building adaptation or resiliency values in their country. So what we're doing is helping countries to think about how can they improve their NDCs for the next five years, because that is a facet of NDCs is making them better than the previous and for many countries, they may have just previously recognized the potential value of coastal wetlands. And for us, it's really about helping to generate the science support policymakers in plotting out how policy leavers could be pulled to include specificed specificity concrete roadmaps for action around coastal wetlands rather than we think these are important climate values and useful ecosystems Do we know they are important because of x, y, z?

Tyler Buckingham  29:48  
That is very cool. And let me let me just ask this. So how do you go about that? So you said like, do you have a list I imagine that in your office, you have a list of countries that have The most like non protected wetland wetlands. And I would put those at the top of is that the way you approach it? Are the are the countries with the with the most at stake at the very top of your list? How do you triage this global problem?

Courtney Durham  30:17  
So for us, in this stage of our project, what we were really trying to do was develop a model. And so we identified a range of countries that could be representative of all different types of contexts and capacities, and political will capabilities, etc. So

Tyler Buckingham  30:36  
that's more complicated than just how much you got

Courtney Durham  30:38  
it is unfortunately, it's I wish it were that easy. But it but it's, it's not. And for us, it's the process is important. It's not just Pew, it's Pew working in partnership with governments, with researchers, universities, other NGOs on the ground, to support the updating of climate plans in a way that that isn't fly in fly out that that really is focused on building capacity for the long haul, because it's about updating these climate plans in the future and being able to deliver on on commitments, frankly,

Tyler Buckingham  31:12  
and can I Peter, sorry, but I just am curious how, how Stacy, who comes first Stacy or Courtney in this thing like, Stacy, do you? Do you go to Courtney and say, Hey, you know, I think we ought to really check out Costa Rica, they got some great sea grasses, and I love sea grasses. And we should really protect those or Courtney do you say hey, I've run this, I've run my global model. And due to the, you know, I don't know, 1000 different variables that I've tracked. These countries are important. Let's study their wetlands. Let's direct some science there. How do you How does that work?

Stacey Baez  31:53  
It's not a linear process. It's more like a matrix. So we have a bunch of parameters that go into where we work and how we work. And each place is unique. Because each place has a different set of scientific capabilities, a different set of policies. And just the research institutions are different. So I'm just speaking on the on the, on the science side, or for example, and maybe to make it a little less abstract. One of our projects is to support seagrass protections. And so we're working in Seychelles. And in Seychelles, there isn't a validated seagrass map. So you don't know exactly how much seagrass you have, where the sea grasses are located. And in addition, you don't know how much carbon is stored in those seagrass beds, and so on. And that's a problem maybe not as strong in the US because the US has, you know, map seagrasses extensively. There's a lot of research that goes into carbon sequestration. But elsewhere globally, we actually lack a seagrass map that's been validated. So the work in in Seychelles is to map sea grasses. And then a local team led by the University of Seychelles will take seagrass soil cores. And so at the end of the project, we will know where sea grasses their their extent and distribution along with the carbon stored, and that information will flow to the government

Peter Ravella  33:37  
and would help drive the development of these national these NDCs, this nationally determined contribution right, this kind of flows into the analysis of what the Seychelles can do to contribute to implementation of the Paris Climate Agreement. Is it my connecting the dots correctly? Or is that off base?

Stacey Baez  33:59  
No, no, that's on track. It goes towards policy climate policy.

Peter Ravella  34:04  
So it sounds like Pew has a great deal to offer both in terms of scientific and technical expertise. And, Courtney, you've been talking about policy options in the toolbox and the development of policy in response to climate change. So as an organization, I'm interested in the collaboration kit. Courtney, could you take us inside of a room? Who are you meeting with what you mentioned, stakeholders, other NGOs, government officials, what does it look like when you're doing the work in a particular project? How are you engaged in Who are you engaging with?

Courtney Durham  34:43  
Of course, I think we've been very intentional in this process of making sure that it was multi stakeholder and that it was seen to be collective and collaborative. So an example I would say have a room so to speak that were in there already. These days, but Zoom Room that we've been in lately is is around believes is blue carbon working group. So this is Pew in partnership with our partners on the ground coming together from from the National Climate Change office in the country from the University of bullies from, from various different science backgrounds, Coastal Zone Management, folks, it's really because of the interstitial nature of the ecosystem. It really is a pretty broad group. And the idea is that we drive towards consensus, what are the concerns or policy options from each point of view? And and how can we work together towards proposed targets or proposed policies that the government can be submitting through their NDC in a way that is seen as as holistic as possible, the real the the, the implementation of these actions and policies has to be built upon that sort of collective consensus, if it is to be successful. So we're really really cognizant of making sure that this is a more sustainable and intentional thought process rather than, you know, this is a recommendation from outside of the country that you should be considering in your in your next update. So it is very, very distinctly about putting in the work with institutional arrangements, getting people connected, sharing data, and Intel, working to build capacity around technical issues, etc. So it is as multistakeholder, frankly, as it can get. Courtney, how are we doing?

Peter Ravella  36:46  
You don't know that?

Tyler Buckingham  36:47  
I'm curious to know. Yeah. Because it strikes me that these coastal wetlands, as you say, they already exist, we don't have to build them. This is a good NDC if I was a country in the Paris Climate accords, and had our possessed coastal wetlands, I'd be protecting those, those guys in claiming credit, an NDC with you. And so I have a two part How are we doing? And and to what extent are, is this an opening a way to open the door for further NDC is that are maybe more ambitious and harder.

Courtney Durham  37:26  
So we're doing better. That is the good news. Like I said, in the initial round of NDCs, since 2015, that first five year batch, there was a there was a good chunk of countries that recognize the importance of coastal ecosystems of the ocean more generally. But again, it lacked the specificity that that one might want in terms of really being able to make concrete policies and actions to protect them or restore them. But I think a really good example of the latest update, which which countries are running through right now for the next five or 10 years cycle is Costa Rica. So they have very recently wrapped up their their NDC process at the end of 2020 submitted it to to the Paris Agreement. And it was a really wonderful example of how coastal wetlands can feature in a country's NDC. It was built again on a multi stakeholder process, it is have some serious ambitious targets they are in and again was was very inclusive, and that it was building on when we think of Costa Rica, they're like the bastion of, of climate action and conservation work, really. And it builds on all of the work they had been doing terrestrially with conservation and restoration work of their forests, but they have now expanded it to include coastal wetlands, mostly mangroves in their case, and for them that practically that meant protecting 100% of the coastal wetlands in their their wetland inventory. So that's like 22,000 Hector's of mangroves. That meant restoring a suite of priority coastal wetland areas by 2025. Thinking about utilizing community stewardship of mangrove areas right to ensure effective management or monitoring plans in the years to come. So it was it was really really good to see in it our expectation is that other countries are seeing the light and have realized that there is a a role that that nature that coastal wetlands can be playing alongside other economy wide emissions reductions. But there is it is a worthy inclusion in an NDC in it and I would say to keep your eyes posted on on a few more to come that will have that layer of specificity and commitment from countries in a robust and ambitious manner.

Peter Ravella  39:56  
Can Can you name it? You know Who who are you impressed by In addition to Costa Rica, in taking seriously the NDC development process and really coming up with concrete and tangible, well grounded stakeholder invested strategies wit, who's who jumps out around the world. From your perspective.

Courtney Durham  40:19  
I've got to say I've got to harken back to believes in Seychelles on this one we've been we've been watching this process unfolding in the past year, and it has been one that is built upon significant political will, but also a recognition that they need to be actionable, and they need to be achievable. It's not just going to be something put on paper, but rather a real movement towards the protection and restoration of coastal wetlands. So I when I think of it that the stars in my mind are the Costa Rica, Belize, Seychelles.

Stacey Baez  40:54  
And I would I would also add on the on the research side, the seagrass mapping work in Seychelles can be a model for many other countries to follow. By the end of that project, they will have had a feel validated seagrass map for the entire EEZ, which is huge, and also know how much carbon they have stored in those seagrass ecosystems. And that has huge implications not just for scientific and advancing scientific knowledge, but also advancing policy.

Tyler Buckingham  41:24  
Totally. It's like you're inventing a process to know how to do it to get the information and yeah, and know how to do the science and that can be replicated elsewhere. And I think that's just so important that you have these first examples, even even if there's some failure along the way, I think we have to be willing to do that. Stacy, what what you mentioned that that wetland science is kind of an emergent space? I'm curious to know, what excites you about kind of the scientific frontier? What new research is out there? That would really just blow the minds of our listeners? Oh,

Stacey Baez  42:01  
that's a good question. So wetland science has been around for quite a long time, but the carbon aspect of it is relatively new. And, and, you know, we hear the term blue carbon ecosystems. You know, that's relatively new that only came on the scene maybe 1010 years ago. And so, you know, scientists have known for a long time how important wetlands are for fisheries and livelihoods, etc. But now, new research shows how powerful they are as carbon sinks. So they sequester five times more carbon per unit area, as far as and, you know, that's massive, they contain these huge carbon stores in their underlying soil. And just to put it into perspective, coastal wetlands are responsible for an estimated 50% of all the carbon buried in marine sediments. So think about the size of the ocean and all the carbon and in the coastal wetlands, the marine sediments there, hold half of the carbon sequestered,

Tyler Buckingham  43:04  
Holy moly,

Peter Ravella  43:05  
that's extraordinary. And I, you know, that kind of information and understanding is, is so important. And I gotta say, It elevates my appreciation of the work to restore and protect wetlands in along the American shoreline, there is a tremendous reason to do this, from a climate perspective, that 50% of the ocean, carbon trapping is in coastal wetlands is something I'd never heard. But that's an extraordinary number.

Stacey Baez  43:31  
It's extraordinary. And it's not just their capacity to draw carbon down. But if these ecosystems are lost or degraded, that carbon that's stored in those soils is re mobilized or now the ecosystem turns into an emitter, the carbon dioxide goes back into the atmosphere, along with two other powerful greenhouse gases, methane and nitrous oxide. So it's equally important to keep these ecosystems healthy and intact. Well,

Courtney Durham  43:59  
and I just add a Stacy's saying, from a policymakers point of view, you want to make sure that you have as many carbon sinks, greenhouse gas sinks in place, and that they don't transform into sources, when you're really thinking about how much hard work needs to go into abating emissions in the future. You don't want to make it any harder on yourself and keeping those ecosystems intact, is going to help retain that that greenhouse gas source versus sink function. Well,

Peter Ravella  44:27  
you know, I gotta say, I'm, I'm encouraged in a couple of ways. Number one, I was not aware that the Paris Climate accord implementation process was as robust as it sounds. We're in round two, it sounds like of the NDC process, the first five years of the 2015 to 2020 plans. So I guess we're in the first round of updates. So there's actual real world work going on. So when people think about the Paris Climate Agreement, and think of it Some pie in the sky thing that says we're going to stop doing certain things. The reality is this agreement has fostered a tremendous network of investment and investigation. Action is what it sounds like. Is that a fair conclusion? Are we moving forward?

Courtney Durham  45:16  
totally fair conclusion. And I think one of the benefits of having that cycle a is that you can encourage action that is able to meet the need the urgency that we know it's not a a 25 year plan that we update way down the line, it is a relatively short lived plan. Yeah. So it leaves a lot of room for progression. And I think very importantly, a Stacy's mentioning the science is developing quickly, the costs of a lot of tech. Innovation is just plummeting. And so being able to revise assumptions or strategies in a shorter term timeline is really meant to recognize those those realities that the climate Sciences is constantly evolving and improving, that the political will is to that administration's come and go, I definitely see it as a progress forward and the fact that NDC is our this continual five year moment, and not just a five year moment, but one that is dedicated to building beyond what you did the previous five years, I think, is what really sets it apart.

Peter Ravella  46:26  
I, I can't help but ask this question. And we haven't talked about the United States his role and participation in the Paris Climate Agreement. Obviously, the previous administration, I think, well known, withdrew the United States from the agreement, the new Biden administration has announced and I believe, re reconnected us to the Paris Climate Agreement. Can you Courtney, can you comment on what you're saying, in terms of the role of the United States is in the Paris Climate Agreement implementation? What are you beginning to see in what do you expect to see from the Biden administration over the next couple of years?

Courtney Durham  47:13  
So what I can say is that their NDC is being revised and that I'm excited to see what they come with it, it's meant to be released on Earth Day, and that listeners and yourself should look forward to that moment to get a little bit more of a sense about what the US is going to be doing. I of course, would love to see coastal wetlands included, but to the extent that the they are revising the mud, the most I know is that we should expect it around Earth The

Peter Ravella  47:42  
Okay, who who leads the effort to develop the United States NDC plan? What is a government agency? Is it departments at EPA who's doing the work?

Courtney Durham  47:54  
It's a tree Edison, it would be EPA and then state is kind of the team that that is the negotiators and socializing that abroad, but

Peter Ravella  48:03  
okay. And we got a new EPA Administrator, confirmed by the Senate this week, from the state of North Carolina, coastal a guy. Do you have confidence? Or do you know enough at this point to say whether the leadership that we have dedicated to the NDC process in the United States is something that you have confidence in is that I hate that? You know, I hope that's not too political a question. But

Courtney Durham  48:34  
what I can say is that I'm excited to see what they come with.

Peter Ravella  48:37  
Okay. I appreciate that answer. It's very new. They've been in office 50 days, it's hard to know, at this stage, but I think there's reason to be to be optimistic. I mean, I think that the United States has participation in the players, Paris Climate Agreement at this point, and re engaging in the process has got to be considered a positive for people who give give a damn about this issue.

Tyler Buckingham  49:03  
I would agree. And I'll just jump in and say, Man, how foundational Paris has been in hearing about these, these wetlands conservation efforts around the globe. And, Courtney, you opened, talking about how these challenges are intersectional and kind of intertwine with basically every other social issue. The environment is our environment. It's, it's, it is it's the setting. It's the setting of our whole, you know, of all the theater of life and and so it with now that we have this new this this Paris thing, and we're deep into it. Is is are you optimistic as well, I mean, are we we you work on this every day, and I want to know that Courtney, I'll start with you. And then I I'd love to hear Stacy's thoughts. But for people who work on this stuff, we're always interested. I mean, how are you? are we feeling good?

Peter Ravella  50:07  
We are, are you optimistic? Can we effectively respond to this? What's your what's your what's your gut feel? What's in your heart about that?

Courtney Durham  50:14  
In my heart? I really am. I really am optimistic. I have seen in action on the ground, I have seen through the the commitment stage to the implementation stage. And I just know that there is a lot of concerted effort to to tackle climate change in a way that that is holistic and collective. And it is something that brings inspiration to me on a daily basis. And I'm so motivated to make sure that those precious places, especially coastal wetlands, and the communities air in are safeguarded for future generations. And I really just have seen that play out time and time again.

Peter Ravella  50:55  
Well, I'm glad to hear that. Let's say at what, Stacy, from your standpoint, how was how optimistic are you about the effectiveness of the of the strategies that we're dealing with on climate change? Can Can the human community get a handle on this problem?

Stacey Baez  51:13  
I mean, there is urgency, but I'm also hopeful. Um, I think the knowledge gap between science on on policy is narrowing. I see more in the way of countries recognizing the value of nature based solutions to climate change. coastal ecosystems are inherently difficult places to manage. But there's a wealth of scientific information available now for stakeholders to explore. There's carbon atlases, there's mangrove mapping. I mean, it's just so great to see the abundance of research that's public, for anyone to look at. And I hope to see a greater integration of coastal ecosystems and protection of of these ecosystems as part of climate policies.

Peter Ravella  52:00  
I'm curious, Courtney, how long? How long have you been with Pew? are working on climate issues?

Courtney Durham  52:09  
So working on climate issues over eight years at Pew for the last two?

Peter Ravella  52:14  
Okay. I'm wonder if it Have you noticed a change in the public discourse, the stakeholder engagement on this issue? Do you still encounter the it's not a real thing? mentality? Or has the conversation advanced? What can you tell us about the communities that you're engaged with? Has the has the understanding sunk in? I guess that's what I'm asking.

Courtney Durham  52:44  
I do think it's permeated, you know, I got my start before the Paris Agreement was a reality. And the conversation was a bit different back then wondering if if governments would take action, wondering if it was going to be as representative of all stakeholders as it should be. And I tell you, when when Paris became a thing, and was adopted in the fashion that it was so quickly, and so unanimously, things seem to change the there was a big exhale. And then there was a be a huge recommitment to getting to work. And I think that the the global community recognized, like I said at the beginning that the cost of inaction is just far too high. We can talk about it from a variety of points of view and, and that's actually useful, right, we can talk about the ecological or conservation value of these places. If you want to think about biodiversity, we can talk about the economic value of these places. If we want to think about national security or stranded assets, potentially on the coasts, the livelihoods generated from tourism or from fisheries, and then you can really think about it, as we have here about a climate value and what it means to support the reduction of emissions and the building of resilience and adapting to climate impacts today, but I think the fact that we're getting better at communicating those values to a range of stakeholders, there's there is a lot to work with.

Peter Ravella  54:18  
One of the interesting shows we did was at Earth x A couple of years ago, Tyler and we had on the Reverend Hitchcock, I believe was his name with evangelicals for environmental protection. That is not exactly the name of the organization but he have been a couple of years it's been a couple years but you mentioned the the way you can understand this issue and motivate or connect to people, economically, environmentally, and a number of different understandings of coastal protection. There is also this spiritual element and I'm curious about this because it particularly in the United States, The evangelical community in perspective is a powerful and a potent political force. And there are organizations in the evangelical community working to help people understand stewardship from a spiritual and even biblical perspective. I'm curious, have you come across that? Have you seen that happening? Is that an element that you've that you've encountered?

Courtney Durham  55:26  
I think that there's an important and that's a good point to raise, there's an important intrinsic value to these places that is often harder to put a name to or a finger on. But But I feel moved when I am standing in front of an ocean, right. And I think a lot of people feel that feeling when when they are looking out across vastness, or the richness of, say, a mangrove forest. I think there is something that happens to us deeply intimately, that we might not be able to communicate in terms of metrics, the way that we do some of the other values but that, like you say, in a conversation, it really can permeate.

Stacey Baez  56:07  
Yeah, there's a lot of cultural value to mangroves, particularly in the Caribbean, and may not be a spiritual connection. But there's such a profoundness of just going back home, and and seeing like the blue crab, running in a mangrove that has really profound cultural implications for trinidadians. Just ties it back to how closely intertwined we are with nature.

Tyler Buckingham  56:33  
Yes, I agree. Stacy, where can our listeners learn more about yells work?

Stacey Baez  56:43  
The Pew website is a great place to start. We have a lot of material about our individual projects, and not just coastal wetlands, but also some of our wider work.

Tyler Buckingham  56:54  
And that is pew.org. Is that right?

Stacey Baez  56:58  
It's Pew trust.org

Peter Ravella  57:02  
It's not quite that easy. Pew trust or Thank you. Before we wrap up, and I'm going to we would like to give your closing thoughts. But I have one more topic I want to ask because of your engagement internationally working in Costa Rica and Bailey's in the Seychelles. One of the things I've read about in climate change action is the potential rift I don't want to say riff necessarily are the tension between what are considered to be the contributors the substantial contributing states to the climate problem, carbon emissions. And of course, it's the major economies around the world, China, the United States, India and others. And the affected communities the most immediately affected and at risk, which tend to be island nations or areas in the South Pacific that are very vulnerable to increasing sea levels and the impacts of this issue. Courtney, can you can you talk a little bit about how the dialogue is going internationally? Boy, here's a broad question between this between the countries that are considered to be the contributors, I want to say maybe bad actors into those affected has this advanced and improved?

Courtney Durham  58:24  
Yeah, what I would say is that there has been a, a, an emergence in in the need to think not only about mitigating, meaning reducing greenhouse gases, but also recognizing the importance of taking action today, towards reducing impacts from climate change generally, to building resilience of societies and systems against climate impacts that we know will happen because of the emissions in our atmosphere. Now, we know we are seeing impacts today and they are likely to get worse before they can get better. But I think there's been a real parity Finally, in terms of mitigating versus recognizing that that it's not just about future reductions, but truly adapting and resilience building today.

Peter Ravella  59:17  
Yeah, that's good to hear. I think it's a big issue and a legitimate question in the process. And I'm starting to see some action in terms of the the making resources available to the immediately affected communities kind of offsetting some of that. I think that's the kind of sharing of responsibility that's going to be part of the solution. Stacey closing thoughts from your standpoint as the science expert, the Pew Charitable Trusts on coastal wetlands and coral reefs,

Stacey Baez  59:48  
you know, I think we we know our coastal wetlands are important. I think we are now recognizing how important they are in terms of their climate value. And I hope countries move towards including more nature based solutions, like the protection of coastal wetlands as part of their climate policies.

Peter Ravella  1:00:14  
Great to me, too, I'm open for that as well. Courtney, what about you closing thoughts?

Courtney Durham  1:00:20  
Yeah, just echoing Stacy's sentiments there. It's It is time to rise to the occasion. And one really exceptional way to do that is, is by protecting and restoring coastal wetlands, they should, they should absolutely be included in NDCs. And countries should, should work to to progress actions and policies and strategies around those ecosystems in the years to come.

Peter Ravella  1:00:44  
That's good to hear. You know, the largest coastal wetlands restoration project, I am told in the history of the United States, if not worldwide, is the mid Barrett area diversion project in the Mississippi River Delta about that the finally is released this week, which is going to result they believe in 10s of 1000s of acres of wetland restoration, by the redirection of Mississippi River sediments into the Delta that used to be pushed off the continental shelf. Anyway, such an interesting conversation. I'm so pleased to learn more about the Pew Charitable Trust and the work you guys are doing. What a high level operation. so critical. A couple world class walks that really yeah, you get me tell you environmental protection is a deep business. You got to be smart as hell. You got to be great on the science great on the law and policy. It's a it's a high calling, and it takes very skilled people and a grid. You guys are fantastic. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Stacey Baez, who is the officer with the Pew Charitable Trust in the coastal wetlands and coral reefs project. And her colleague, Courtney Dunn, Donna Durham, I'm sorry, who is an officer in the international conservation unit of the Pew Charitable Trust. What a treat. Thank you for sharing your insights and perspective with our listeners on the American shoreline podcast.

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