Winds of Change on the American Shoreline with Kris Ohleth of the Special Initiative on Offshore Wind

Peter Ravella  0:00  
Hello everybody and welcome to the American shoreline podcast. This is Peter Ravella. co host of the show.

Tyler Buckingham  0:06  
and this is Tyler Buckingham, the other co host.

Peter Ravella  0:09  
Tyler, one of my favorite subjects to follow on coastal news today and on the on the American Shoreline Podcast Network is the development of what I think is going to be one of the biggest new industries on the American shoreline and that is offshore wind. And we've done a few shows, but I really think this one is going to be special. We have a great expert to join us today on the American shoreline podcast. It is Kris Olaf, and she is the executive director newly minted I would say brand new brand new with the special initiative on offshore wind, an organization affiliated with the University of Delaware's College of Earth and Earth, ocean and the environment. Delaware is a leading state in the planning for offshore wind, Kris has an incredible background, having formerly served as a senior manager of stakeholder engagement at or stead. And for our listeners out there who aren't familiar one of the biggest offshore wind power development companies out of Europe, fantastic company everything I know about it. So I'm really looking forward to talking to Kris today Tyler.

Tyler Buckingham  1:17  
Yeah, well, you Everyone knows I am to really looking forward to it wind, the development of offshore wind is absolutely going to be the I think it is going to be the largest the biggest, you know, infrastructure change, probably that and The Big Short protection projects that we're seeing in major cities and and so we have been tracking it closely. And we have a great interview here with Kris lined up for you

Peter Ravella  1:44  
well wouldn't be thing what I wanted to add, and just so our listeners out there, I'm gonna encourage everybody to stop what you're doing and finish and listen to this show because one of the things on the website for Kris's organization that jumped out at me is that the potential for wind power development off the northeast coast of the United States is rated as up to 13 gigawatts of power. And for folks who aren't familiar with what those what those terms mean, that is enough energy to power 85 million homes. The estimate is it fully developed wind power off these coasts could could fund all of the homes on the eastern seaboard. So this really matters and it's a big deal, Tyler.

Tyler Buckingham  2:29  
Yes, it is. Be a great conversation today. Ladies and gentlemen. But first a word from our sponsors.

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Peter Ravella  3:26  
Well, Kris, welcome to the American shoreline podcast. And thank you for taking time out of your busy day to talk to us and our listeners.

Kris Ohleth  3:34  
Really my pleasure to be here. Thanks so much for inviting me.

Peter Ravella  3:37  
Well, I hope our introduction was reasonably accurate in terms of the magnitude of what this potential industry is. And we're really looking forward to getting into the detail but it is a tradition on our show to to help our audience understand who they're listening to. And so, Kris, can you tell us about your background? What got you into the wind power? issue as a professional how long you've been in it, give us a background on on what steered you into this very interesting and developing industry?

Kris Ohleth  4:08  
Yeah, I really am feel so fortunate that I'm in an industry where we get to explore the intersection of energy environment, economy stakeholders, I think, you know, something that's kept me so interested in offshore wind is just the huge variety of issues we face on a daily basis. And so really, the journey started for me about 15 years ago, when I was undertaking my graduate studies at the University of Rhode Island. I had spent a gap year the previous year to my master's degree in Europe, trying to understand, you know, where could a coastal and ocean planning person put an emphasis and you know, where could I really look at something that's exciting, and that's happening now. And that has all These interesting facets and kind of put that together for my master's thesis. And when I was in Germany, I observed in so many ways, the incredible energy diversification that they enjoyed in their economy. And when I was thinking about the US, I said, you know, I'm not looking around the northeast of the US where I was from, and seeing the same thing. I wasn't seeing wind farms on and offshore, I wasn't seeing solar panels on everyone else's on everyone's houses, just really not seeing that opportunity for different types of renewable energy. And so when I came back to the States, the unfortunately ill fated project of Kate wind off the coast of Massachusetts was kind of currently being bantered around that project, inevitably was unsuccessful. But it was a really, it was a flashpoint. It was this conversation about the trade off between clean energy versus perhaps some of the more affluent coastal stakeholders and what was threatening their view shed the conversation about potential impacts to fishing, bird migrations, so many stakeholders involved and, and really thanks to keep wind for being a leader in introducing this conversation, and frankly, stimulating the conversation that led to a regulatory framework that finally enabled offshore wind to happen at the federal level under the Bureau of Ocean Energy Management. But it was really their starting with my master's thesis at the University of Rhode Island, I had a an advisor, and if anyone out there is listening, and they're contemplating or in grad school, I had an industry advisor, as well as a academic advisor. And they co led my thesis with me. And I found that to be a tremendous asset, because what happened is, as soon as I finished my graduate studies, literally the following Monday, I was working for one of the nation's first offshore wind developers called Blue Water wind, and really kind of cutting my teeth on the development of the nation's to be first offshore wind farm, the first in fact offshore wind PPA or power purchase agreement in the country. And that was super exciting back in 2015. So I'm sorry, 2005. And so those 15 years that have ensued, have been very exciting. I've worked for a variety of different developers had the opportunity to work in the environmental space on a couple of state and regional collaborations. So you know, it's always been offshore wind, and my mother still asks me, you know, with relative frequency, are you guys ever going to build a wind farm or what? And unfortunately, that's still where we are, my friends, we are in the space where we have two small demonstration projects in the US, but are 30 years behind our compatriots in Europe who had their first wind farm in 1991. So now they mark their 30th year of offshore wind, and we're really at the precipice of something great here in the US.

Tyler Buckingham  8:08  
Well, that's a polite way of putting it. Because as you say, we are we were still-

Peter Ravella  8:13  
Lousy job.

Tyler Buckingham  8:15  
Well, I mean, we're late, we're late to the party. But that doesn't mean we can't make a big splash once we get there. And I think that that's what we're all hoping for. Kris, I would love it. If we could go back to two right there. First of all, great advice on the industry advisor, I think that we do have quite a few student listeners. And that is a really great way to make connections into the private sector and with, you know, a job opportunities. It's just a smart thing to do. But take us back to 2005. I mean, it had obviously, that's a ways back. What were the what were the challenges, then what were you working on? And has the technology changed much since then? I'm just curious to know what when you think back to that era, what defines that 2005 era in offshore wind?

Kris Ohleth  9:07  
Well, then there were far less certainties around the regulatory structure. When cape wind, who was the the kind of project of the time had applied to the federal government for their environmental permits under the National Environmental Policy Act, or NEPA. They had filed to the Army Corps of Engineers at the time, and there was no regulatory structure for wind farms in the ocean. They really push the envelope on getting us to where we are now. So back then it was the minerals management service or m&s that eventually became the Bureau of Ocean Energy Management. And, you know, it was, you know, back in 2005, that we really saw the the Energy Policy Act and Oxley allow for boam to take over the renewable energy She space on the Outer Continental Shelf. And so without, without the Army Corps, kind of getting pushed into this permanent project process with cape wind, there never would be what we have today, which is the regulatory framework that Boeing uses in order to usher these projects into existence isn't a perfect framework, far from it, you know, something we're interested at special initiative in exploring is the opportunity to make some tweaks in that framework that might enable projects to move through the system in a more comprehensive framework as with respect to how developers see an approach, but you know, really, looking back to 2005, it was the absence of a regulatory framework. So that is now a hurdle we have overcome. But some things that haven't changed much are what we still face with respect to coastal community stakeholders. And you know, whether that's someone who doesn't want to see a wind farm off of their beach, to a community who does not want a cable buried under their beach, to a fishing community who thinks that will disrupt or disrupt their fishing opportunities, those threats to the industry are still very real today.

Peter Ravella  11:14  
It's a perfect segway to the question I wanted to go to next. And and I'd like to learn a little bit more about your time as the senior manager of stakeholder engagement for worstead. From about three year period, early 2018, through I guess, January of 2021. So your most recent job? Could you educate our audience a little bit about what you were doing on behalf of or stead? And how the conversation may have evolved with the community over your engagement as a, as a as a specialist for doorstep?

Kris Ohleth  11:52  
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think we talked a little bit in the beginning about how offshore wind is so interesting and fascinating, because it touches on so many different topic areas. Well, conversely, that means that there are a whole lot of stakeholders who are interested in offshore wind, and that crosses everything from the environmental community, to the folks who are paying electricity bills known as the ratepayers to the elected officials, to people who are, you know, homeowners in the coastal community, to, you know, the all the way to the fishing community and everywhere in between, when we would develop stakeholder engagement plans at worstead, we would literally divide the communities into sometimes up to 20, different sectors of types of individuals who would have different concerns about the wind farm. And so it was kind of my job, to look at the big picture for the company, and understand what the threats from a stakeholder perspective were. And help organize us as a company with a really transparent and proactive approach in the community and or set is a really special company. And I have a huge amount of fondness and love for the company was very hard for me to leave there. And I think we'll talk a little bit about my current role. But it just has a special and wonderful company, not only in the marketplace, but to work for. And one of the things that makes them special is this concept that not only do they develop and construct wind farms, but they operate wind farms for their 25 to 30 year lifespan. And so it's very important to them, that they have a place in the community, it's not just about getting there, build a wind farm and flip it and sell it off. So you know, your name is no longer associated with it, and you kind of wash your hands. It's about a long term proposition. And that's one thing that, for me really always made it special for me to work for worstead. And so getting into the communities early, making long term relationships, the reason I worked with or said the reason I was initially hired is because I'm a local New Jersey person. And we were building one of the country's largest offshore wind farms, the 1100 megawatt ocean wind project off the coast of Atlantic City, New Jersey, they wanted a local person because I knew the community and so they hired me to be local in the community. And that's what you know, stakeholder engagement is all about for or said is that local connection, and then understanding what offer win means to that community, maybe one community is really concerned about the view shed and another community is really concerned about fishing. But, uh, you know, conversely they have, they don't share those interests. And so it's understanding what those are, and designing a project that can really live in harmony with that community.

Tyler Buckingham  14:44  
Before we get into your new job as the director of the special initiative on offshore wind, I I'd like to go back to what you were saying about mapping out those 20 Different kinds of threats, I guess, get different stakeholder groups. And I'm just I'm very curious as to how you would approach that that problem? Where do you begin by doing that, I realized that, you know, you have your bona fide days there in New Jersey, you're, you're a local person with, with with grassroots metal, but how do you go about mapping it out and deciding who you need to work on? Who do you talk to? Or do you just kind of let them come to you?

Kris Ohleth  15:35  
Well, at least, at worst, that I can, you know, kind of speak for our experience, we found the most success and being proactive, as opposed to kind of the, you know, the reactive opportunity, you know, so that that stakeholder mapping exercise was really important. And then identifying within that category, who the real, you know, kind of four or five key influencers are in that space. And so, you know, let's just take, for example, the, the environmental nonprofit, or NGO community in New Jersey. So we would identify that as a category, and then look at the players who either had the most concerns, or were most active in the space. And so those influencers could kind of have the positive or negatively affiliated with offshore wind, but you want to put them on your kind of your top, your top five list. And then it really became figuring out what was important to those stakeholders. And that usually was, and it's, there's no like real magic or science, it's relationship building and open dialogue. And so it just took a ton of time, you know, and relationship building to spend in the community and understand what was important to each one of those specific NGOs. And then, you know, helping the company understand how we can design a project that meets the needs of that community. So just by way of example, the NGO community in New Jersey, you know, gave us particular feedback that said, you know, just because you're burying the cable under the beach, through a process called horizontal directional drilling, which is a very common process to desert to essentially avoid sensitive coastal ecosystems by drilling underneath the beach, whether that's with a cable or a pipe, or whatever it might be, you know, even though you're using HDD, that is not necessarily a free pass for assuming you have no impacts coastally from your offshore wind project, we either there may be times where we might prefer you to do some open cutting, there may be times where we, you know, prefer that you avoid these times of year, and have these seasonal restrictions, or other types of considerations around that construction process. But it took a lot of listening to understand what those things are. And to feed those back to the horse and project team so that they could design a project in turn that worked. I mean, really, what we're trying to get to, is a project that causes the least amount of consternation in the community and the least amount of objection. Because on the back end, that's a huge risk to project development to have stakeholders come out of the woodwork and say, Hey, we, we prefer that you open cut that we never wanted HDD, you find that out too far down the road. Now you've got a real problem.

Tyler Buckingham  18:27  
What it also strengthens the brand in the long run, which is what you were saying or said was kind of going for that long relationship with these people, they're not going to go away, and neither will y'all. So you might as well get things off on the right foot and develop a trusting relationship. And I just think there's a lot to be learned from that these projects, I think have I know, I'm just speaking for myself, but in 2005, if you mentioned offshore wind to me, my gut reaction, very uneducated gut reaction would have been against it, because it was like it felt unnatural. And it takes a lot of engagement, just you know, at the at the influencer level, you know, makes a lot of sense. But it takes a lot of engagement to bring people around and get them to understand that there really is a benefit here and clean energy, which of course is our big purpose today as we come into this inflection point as you referenced earlier, but let's let's move to your to your new position one month in Congratulations, by the way.

Peter Ravella  19:34  
Yep. Congratulations on the new job.

Kris Ohleth  19:36  
Thank you so much.

Tyler Buckingham  19:37  
Why don't we start with tell us about the special initiative on offshore wind? What What does this group do and what is what is your job inside that group?

Kris Ohleth  19:47  
Yeah, well, I'm really excited to be heading up this organization. It was stood up in 2013 with really the expressed interest of helping states Specifically the state of New York at the time, understand what the cost of offshore wind would be. Now, this was almost a decade ago. And states were genuinely concerned about potential impacts to ratepayers. So those people paying their electricity bills from offshore wind. I mean, this is the trade off, right? We don't want it to be such a societal burden to, you know, across the board, everyone in the state, that when you build an offshore wind project, there's that negative impact to the economy, particularly to commercial and industrial users who pay the lion's share of of some of these electricity bills. And so the state of New York approached the special initiative on offshore wind and said, You know, you're not even a thing yet. But you shouldn't be a thing, because we have no one to ask this question. And to get the policy answer from there, really, there were trade groups, there were universities working on things. But there wasn't this independent Think Tank, like the si o w. That could be impartial, that could synthesize data that had a university affiliation to help maintain its independence, and then deliver answers to states that weren't necessarily filtered by the lens of a developer or others. In fact, once the New York cost study was finished, some developers were actually concerned with the results. And they said, you know, you shouldn't be delivering that study, offshore wind won't happen if you tell the states what it's going to cost. But the states knew that it would be more expensive than the ratepayers were currently paying. And so hiding that information would never really bring the industry to bear. And so the si o w is really about the long term sustainability of an industry that, that other players are really looking to project specific to really pick their head up and look at the long term play. And that's the goal of the special initiatives provide that strategy. And those, you know, that directive to state and federal policymakers to really create a long term sustainable industry and offshore wind.

Peter Ravella  22:12  
Well, it sounds like a great hire, I'll have to say to the board of the SIOW for picking up someone with your experience and background, to lead the organization. I guess I guess you've unpacked your desk by about now and may have a computer and an email address. But have you had a chance to think about your priorities moving forward as the new executive director of the organization?

Kris Ohleth  22:38  
I have, I actually haven't slept much, because, you know, I'm thinking so much about them, and really excited because I think there's an opportunity, you know, all the developers, the other stakeholders interested in this industry have their nose to the grindstone, I just came out of it at worstead really working specifically, as I mentioned, on the ocean wind project in New Jersey, so I can appreciate the intensity, that people who are so close and in the industry are working at that huge intensity. And so there aren't many people who are taking a step back or organizations per se, and say, you know, how are we really achieving the goals long term of the industry? So beyond the project beyond the current round of leasing? How are we really coming to coexistence in the ocean space? What is the roadmap look like for that? How do we get all the stakeholders on board, because right now, we're kind of fighting all these small individual battles, that are not going to allow the industry to blossom as we need it to if we are going to meet our climate change targets, and really the most urgent question, as we know, in our current society, and so how do we clear the path for that? How do we take the lessons learned from this past decade? Plus, that a few of us who are still in the industry have experienced how do we take the lessons learned of the strong coexistence in Europe of all the offshore wind stakeholders and apply it going forward? That's my goal. I don't know exactly how I'm going to do that yet. And I don't know if I can. But that is my goal, because I feel that is the way that we can ensure offshore wind has a long term play in the US.

Tyler Buckingham  24:22  
I think that sounds excellent. And I'm curious, you know, you're you're coming in here, you've you're stepping away from Oris dead and into this kind of think tank where you are a leader in the space. And I'm curious what your assessment is having spent 15 years in the offshore wind space. What does the space need from a leadership perspective?

Kris Ohleth  24:49  
Well, it's an incredibly thoughtful and interesting question. And I think it can be answered from a variety of perspectives. You know, while I like to think that I myself can provide some leadership around this, just from my historical knowledge. I think there also really needs to be some leadership at the national level, we have a lack of kind of a comprehensive national ocean plan. We do not nor ever have had comprehensive national energy policy, there really are a lot of questions around what those policies are, and how we want to look at the ocean from a systems level, and what our priorities are. And until that is articulated, it can be very challenging for the stakeholders in a piecemeal way to be reacting to projects, here and there and not ever getting a sense of, well, if if our true goal is to deal with the issues of climate and do what we can in the next decade, because I you know, that is our current kind of cut off timeline, then we need to have all the, to continue your analogy, all the boats rowing in the same direction. And right now everyone's just kind of crashing into each other out in the ocean, we don't have one policy that says, offshore wind is a stated explicit goal. We have federal agencies working against each other, and not necessarily out of any malice, but just because they have different directives. So to have the administration to have the Biden administration help set a course that is comprehensive, and thoughtful and collective would be really the dream of the offshore wind industry, I think, and something that I'm hoping SIOW can help in the convening of and, you know, really help in developing national strategy.

Tyler Buckingham  26:51  
Can you provide some historical context as to why we don't have why we haven't done this already have a national ocean policy national, the National ocean policy, I kind of understand we're kind of confronting climate change and realizing the interconnectivity of everything but a national energy policy that strikes me is that like, what, why is that why haven't we, we unified and created a national strategy?

Kris Ohleth  27:23  
I mean, I think part of it is just the natural challenges we experienced as a nation being so large and having different regional priorities. I mean, everyone is has Texas on their mind as we talk about energy these days, having their own independent grid and really always wanting to have that entrepreneurial spirit. You know, so you're gonna find states and, you know, large state economies like California, who have different goals. And so to merge those all into one energy policy, one could understand how it could be nearly impossible. To help make that happen. It really requires the leadership and creativity of a moon landing or a war response. I mean, there's really nothing short of that. We, hopefully with the new administration, and it remains to be seen, but early indications are that this administration is serious about climate change. They're serious about decarbonisation of the power market, the energy system, wind power, and solar are proven technologies around the world now. And where we're from in Texas, Texas is the number one wind power producing state not offshore, but on onshore. So they're what I'm curious about, I appreciate what you're saying about the difficulty of a Federal Energy Policy or a comprehensive offshore policy that would make this all move forward a little smoother. But I'm very encouraged by what I'm reading about, in terms of the state level initiatives on wind power on the Atlantic seaboard, and particularly in the northeast states. You mentioned New York, several states have announced very specific wind power acquisition targets. I think this is important in the market. Can you talk about what's happening at the state level? And are you encouraged or are you concerned about what you're seeing in the leadership in the northeast states? Well, it's it's really is tremendous the the leadership that the states have been taking, and it's really seen all the way from Maine down to South Carolina at this point, when especially in these past four years, where there was no leadership around clean energy goals. The state's took it upon themselves, not only from the Clean Energy perspective, but from an economic development perspective, right. Each one of these states didn't not want to be missing out on the offshore wind opportunity. Each of these states have ports that are in need of rehab rehabilitation and redevelopment. Each one of these states have economies that are suffering, especially in these past in this past year, due to COVID. And so we have this kind of once in a generation opportunity to create a brand new industry, in the maritime community. And so offshore wind is bringing that the states are appreciating that. And, you know, frankly, it's really what has saved the offshore wind industry absent a national policy as you as you mentioned, and so the states are really taking leadership. One concern that I and others have is that while state competition can be healthy, it also was stymieing progress sometimes because you know, the classic, for example, of New York and New Jersey competition, you have New York trying to draw for developers New Jersey and kind of working against each other sometimes where if there was more collaboration, you know, potentially that rising tide could raise all ships. But you know, naturally, there's a competition between states, and that can cause some friction.

Peter Ravella  31:16  
Well, you know, it is in a way, it indicates that there is a recognition that there is a real economic opportunity here. But getting the states to be cooperative, and how they develop an approach this development of this new industry sounds like a perfectly good role for the special initiative. Shortly, before we get these guys to slip settled down and work together. And let's get this industry off the ground. I want to ask you, one of the things I've been curious about is the offshore leasing on federal waters, sites for wind power and other energy development offshore. So we've tracked for example, during the Trump administration, the lease sales for gulf of oil, Gulf of Mexico, deepwater oil drilling, and the Trump administration offered the entire golf essentially federal land lease areas for sale a couple of times, the lease sale totals were somewhere in the 250 to $300 million range, which sounds like a lot of money. But in that industry in that business, not terribly impressive compared to other lease sales. I have read about offshore wind power, lease sales often or sees that hit $400 million. And I want to wonder if you could talk about access to federal waters for wind power development, number one, and number two, what appears to be the recent entry of major oil companies into the lease purchasing auctions, including shell and BP and others. Can you talk about this a little bit?

Kris Ohleth  33:01  
Yeah, absolutely. It's it's really exciting, I think, to see the oil majors, I mean, not only from an environmental and climate perspective, but from a policy and political standpoint, once we really have less, you know, kind of objection from the oil and gas community about what we see as the inevitable development of offshore wind resources, and have them actually participating, that is going to absolutely help our lobbying efforts in DC to kind of show that this is a bipartisan energy opportunity. And so having shell and BP and others involved, really demonstrates an evolution in the industry that we've been waiting to come for some time when I started, when I was with blue water, wind, it was, you know, we call the two guys in a rental car. You know, it was like a couple of us driving around the coast with a map and a picture of wind farms off on the ocean. I mean, the cover very far. Right. Right, keep going. I'm sorry. Yeah, you know, so you're we're looking at multi billion dollar projects that require incredible amounts of capital, and were with all so you really need investment by these large entities who have not only the capital, but the experience of building in the marine environment, right. So there really are a perfect fit for it. And, you know, they they know if it makes economic sense, they'll be in, you know, that's that's what we show is that you can make money building offshore wind farms, they are economically sound.

Peter Ravella  34:36  
Well, it makes sense. I mean, there is this transition, and I think that you the new US Secretary for energy has indicated to the oil and gas industry that transitioning to being an energy company, as opposed to being an oil and gas company is a good thing to start thinking about doing. And there isn't any I think BP certainly is seems to be taking this tack. I think Shell Oil is as well looking at their poke portfolio of energy products to include wind as just as essential as their hydrocarbon based energy business. There is also seems to be quite a bit of support from the Gulf States and in the offshore oil and gas construction industry recognizing that the construction of offshore wind towers is going to involve the same trades and shipping and support services that are required of offshore oil and gas. It This is, is this not Kris? It's just a huge economic opportunity. How big is this industry going to be? Do you think over the next decade? Can you? are we about to do something bigger? Are we still going to be piddling around 10 years from now?

Kris Ohleth  35:48  
Well, 10 years from now, if we, if we do everything, right, or most of it, right, we're really looking at on the East Coast alone, the development of, you know, 10s of billions of dollars at the supply chain. And you know, something like estimates over 80,000 jobs on the East Coast alone from this industry. So I mean, the economic opportunities, and that's really just kind of the direct opportunities are really staggering.

Tyler Buckingham  36:19  
Yeah, no question about it. I mean, it just gets your your wheels turning to imagine wheels turn I guess, my my turbans turning out there. But and

Kris Ohleth  36:30  
When you think about, you know, Texas, for example, being the state with the most land based wind, I think maybe some people were surprised to learn about how much land based wind Texas had, because they picture it as an oil and gas state. But the thing is, Texas is an energy state, and they get it. And they've enjoyed some of the lowest cost of power of any state in the nation, because they embraced wind, and actually, you know, are seeing wind producing at cost lower than fossil generation. So you know, I the oil majors will see the same thing when the economics are right, which is right, where we're coming to that sweet spot for offshore wind. These are, you know, this is energy all, you know, all of the above energy, it's not necessarily about clean or anything, it's just about how you can develop a project that has a profit.

Tyler Buckingham  37:21  
All right. So clearly, you know, I want to go back to the this nexus of stakeholders, and I specifically want to talk about the environmentalists who are near and dear to our heart, we know that there are major major, major environmental concerns associated with just about everything along the eastern seaboard. We cover very anything along the coast, anything along the coast, but certainly were these big, big, big projects are being planned. We're talking about whale habitat, Northern North Atlantic, Right Whale habitat, along, you know, the migratory route there. And I'm curious to know how, of course, there is the carbon picture of the environment, which I think is very important. And I don't want to move past that right away. But we are talking about massive installations out at sea, what are what what what do you say to people who throw up an environmental red flag and say, hold on a second, do we even know what the impacts would be? What do you tell those folks?

Kris Ohleth  38:26  
Well, I think it's important that we get started. And then we closely monitor the projects and use the concept of adaptive management to develop projects going forward. Because I think if we spend another decade or two, you know, supposing what might or could happen if we build an offshore wind farm, we're going to lose the opportunity to fight to fight climate and so so I really think what makes sense is to go ahead and start building some of those first projects, and being able to react and adaptively manage the development of wind farms going forward. And I think the Bureau of Ocean Energy Management who is regulating and looking at all these things in a cumulative way, they are prepared to to undergo NEPA processes going forward under that type of regime.

Peter Ravella  39:21  
I understand that there's an environmental impact statement announcement that has been recently occurred on a project, looking when it comes to the environmental community. I'll just be flat out what my bias is here. We need to get behind this. And I understand that there are legitimate questions. I think what you're suggesting is exactly right. Let's get these projects up and going. Let's adapt, let's identify what the problems are. But when you think about what we're trying to do here, which is respond to climate provide cheap and affordable power and create new jobs on the eastern seaboard. This is a solid The initiative, and the technology is not terribly risky, in my opinion. These towers, of course, can be significant in their size, the brand new heylife 12 megawatt, I think it's 12 megawatt towers is 107 meter long. Peter loves that I just can't believe the size of these.

Tyler Buckingham  40:19  
I mean, it is badass.

Peter Ravella  40:20  
They're incredible. And they're if you took them far enough off short, you get your outside the view scape number one, are their nonpolluting, you do have the transmission issue to deal with. But come on. I mean, Kris, when we're sitting around with your your friends in the wind power business, at some point, do you just kind of, you know, shake your head and go, why aren't people getting solidly behind it? Are there advocates and environmental organizations who are out there pushing for wind power development in the northeast?

Kris Ohleth  40:52  
Absolutely. I think, you know, it's usually typically supportive overall, but then there's kind of this Asterisk, you know, like, we support offshore wind if or but, and then it really comes down to the site specific details. And if that project is being done, well, you know, if their project you want to drill offshore wind monopiles into the seabed during the Right Whale migration? No, would they don't, they're not going to support the project anymore. And it's really up to the developers to design projects that can help, I think, alleviate those concerns. Most do recognize, you know, for example, the Audubon Society who have said, climate is the greatest threat to avian species, it is the thing that is causing most of the habitat degradation for the species, putting turbines outside of eight miles offshore, you're outside of flyways, birds are kind of de minimis at that distance from Sure. We are supportive of offshore wind at that point. So I think, to the most extent offshore wind is is quite accepted by the environmental community, it just comes down to those specific siting issues. But, you know, it certainly is frustrating, because if we don't deal with the issues of climate change, all the other questions are moot.

Tyler Buckingham  42:14  
right. Well, that's what's so interesting about it. And that's why I bring it up. And I'm curious to know, how you how you tackle these these issues. And, you know, for what it's worth, Peter, I agree with you, but you know, I do think we need to get out there. But what what I find interesting about it is the psychological social thing where we, the human, terrestrial humans, see the ocean as this wilderness space, almost that it's like, we don't mind so much doing a mine or doing an on land installation. I don't know, there's some like psychological thing about that, that I've I have a feeling is just kind of underneath it. But yeah, underneath and and of course, the education, I think is is an important part, but also just this frame of reference, understanding how important clean energy is, to an environmentally sustainable existence is something that is kind of new for humanity. I mean, we just have not yet had to confront this carbon crisis that we're we're into, and I have to imagine that there will be all sorts of spillover. Kris help helped me understand what the car the energy picture in the United States is going to look like in the future, assuming we're able to figure our stuff out and really go full power here full throttle on offshore wind, what percent of the pie is of American energy, do you think will be generated offshore? And I don't know. 10, 20 years?

Peter Ravella  43:51  
Great question. Yeah. Anybody else?

Kris Ohleth  43:54  
I mean, that is a great question. I mean, I really, you without like, having numbers and analysis in front of me wouldn't want to, you know, give you a specific number on percentages. But I do know that the type of work that's being done now on technologies like energy storage, enables us to get to a point where these intermittent resources, like, you know, offshore wind like solar can be, you know, treated as baseload power, and therefore, really can completely take over the energy supply mix. I think it's really interesting. The conversation about the evolution of nuclear energy, being that it has no emissions is being considered by some states as clean energy or at least emissions free energy. And so how is that going to play into the mix? And I have a lot of mixed feelings about it. But I think, you know, if we're really looking at the near term threats, then it's certainly part of the part of the formula

Tyler Buckingham  45:00  
As you know, to characterize this discussion, folks, this is like a, you know, a very casual conversation about rearranging the deck chairs as the Titanic is sinking, we need to figure out our energy system, it is very urgent. So, yes, I think that nuclear, I think all options have to be on the table at this point, even though that might confound some of our old prejudicing.

Peter Ravella  45:27  
So when I, you know, I, I, if they can ever figure out what to do with the waste from these power plants, and if they can figure out the economics that the thing about nuclear power, which I don't think is true, necessarily in the wind industry, now, it's mature to a point of being economically viable and proven to be economically viable market competitive at this point. Isn't is, is that a fair characterization of wind? Kris, at this point that it can compete and it it can your rep? Well, we've got a healthy offshore wind us industry. Is it competitive with other power sources in Europe at this point?

Kris Ohleth  46:08  
In Europe? Absolutely. In fact, two years ago, I believe it was in 2019, we saw the first subsidy free, offshore wind bid accepted in Europe for an offshore wind farm. And so you saw in about, you know, what, you know, just over two decades of commercial scale, offshore wind development, the opportunity to go subsidy free. And my friends, we are still subsidizing oil and gas on your course. So I'm so I mean, if something goes subsidy free and acute in a couple decades, there is a lot of power there. No pun intended.

Peter Ravella  46:45  
Yeah. I wanted to throw out this my suspicion. And this is this is a creeping suspicion and I probably I'm hoping that it's completely warranted. But when I saw that the major oil companies were becoming players in bidding for the offshore leases for wind power sites, and it looked like in a couple of cases, tremendously outbidding if we can say the traditional bidders, like or stead and other wind power companies really bumping up the game. Aren't you concerned at all that these companies once they are in possession of these leases, will slow down the development of offshore wind?

Kris Ohleth  47:33  
No, not at all. Okay, there are their intentions are pretty clear. Right, you know, really diversifying their energy supply next. And I will say that when you look at that example, for the Massachusetts bidding and the $400 million plus results, part of that really is a supply and demand issue, because there's just no real estate left that's going up for lease on the eastern seaboard of the US. bolam says in 2022, we'll see new areas off the coast of New York, New Jersey and the New York bite. Okay. But ostensibly, I think it's just a scarcity issue. And that really drove up some of those numbers.

Peter Ravella  48:14  
Well, the fact that that these leases did drop $400 million on the right to put it in the in the water, which does not, of course, include any of the construction and a cost is tells me that there is a real understanding of the potential economic value of this industry. And I'm hoping that coastal communities along the shoreline, mayors and county people in state leadership will understand and I believe this is what you you work to do, is to really consider the significant opportunity for new industries clean industries on the shoreline and the job you said 80,000 jobs potentially created. This is so important, and it's and I'm just hoping that those pieces of the puzzle begin to merge together and we get this going.

Kris Ohleth  49:08  
Absolutely.

Tyler Buckingham  49:09  
I second that. And to me, the big thing is we've watched the American shoreline gentrify dramatically particularly, particularly in areas outside of big you know, working port zone Gloucester mass, yeah, well,

Peter Ravella  49:27  
that's a good name because it is these traditional working shorelines being being converted into condo land,

Tyler Buckingham  49:34  
condo land. And I just think that this is a real opportunity for working class jobs. I think that it's for people who will live and work and be coastal citizens involved in actually converting our energy system. This is this is the modern era's version of like doing the Hoover Dam, which I find so funny because like today, that's it's an environmental catastrophe. Like my dad, my grandfather took my dad on a road trip from Chicago. And when they went to the Hoover Dam, yes, like, yeah, it was a sight to my parents did the same. And, you know, people talked about how they worked on it, it was proud of it was a net source of national pride. And I do hope that this goes back to that leadership comment, that Biden's starting with the president starting with our national leader. And, of course, there are other leaders out there get thread this needle. Yeah. Talk about and have the United States lead this operate this way to create jobs transition the economy along the American shoreline? I think it's mayors, local leaders need to be part of that as well. They have a role to play in making that happen. It can't all be POTUS.

Peter Ravella  50:56  
No, no. Well, and, Kris, let me just let me just twist that a little bit in the question. Because in the engagement business, you were in with or stat and trying to build the support for these projects. The trick of that trade that and Tyler did this tender, and I've done this work on shoreline management and restoration projects. Similarly, public engagement philosophy, is that the trick to it seemed to me that you had to be interested enough to listen and understand as you described, and then adjust the project. That's what makes public engagement and support built in it sounds like oersted, was absolutely open to shaping the projects in particular ways to meet local concerns. Is that fair to say about the industry as a whole? And how important is that willingness to to adjust and shape these things the right way?

Kris Ohleth  51:51  
Well, I think you see, kind of a range of willingness. You know, one might argue, and I haven't been on the side. But, you know, there was a lot of consternation around the vineyard wind project and the spacing of the turbines with respect to feedback from the offshore efficient community, there was kind of a lot of hold out there. I was not intimately involved in the conversation. So I don't want to speak to it too closely. But I think developers kind of if you're kind of thinking about the long game, you know, you don't want to adjust your turbine layout scheme, because now that means you got to spend another $2 million doing geophysical and geotechnical surveys on your new on your new area. Yeah. So you try to push through the permitting with what you've got, yeah. But you end up really in the hole on the back end. And so, you know, what, you know, an example that worstead did was early on, you know, looked at examples, brought the turbine spacing to the fishermen, took the feedback, rearrange the whole project layout before the permits were submitted and said, you know, all right now, we know this is how it should be. And so I think, did agree that you can do that. I think it's going to be paramount to the industry. And another really fascinating component of this, as you're mentioning, the kind of coastal development and dynamic and working shorelines is that, you know, one of the most important facets, I think of the Biden administration that will look different than any other administration, whether it was a Republican or Democrat, is the focus on environmental justice and inclusion. And that is a really powerful concept around offshore wind. When you think about where power plants are usually developed. It is in those communities that are most sensitive, as environmental justice communities, we're flipping the whole model on its head. Yeah, we're building wind farms in the front yards of the richest communities in the nation. And so it's very, it's a very interesting social commentary. I have no answers, but I just want to flag that as something that's quite ironic.

Peter Ravella  54:00  
It's a great, it's a great observation. And it's true. And we both if you people following along on the wind power discussions, have seen Martha's Vineyard in the community of Martha's Vineyard, including the Kennedy family getting very active and opposing certain wind power projects for view scapes reasons and and I hadn't thought of that, but you're quite right. The observation is, this is power production, that is implicating communities that are not typically asked to absorb industrial development or energy projects. We stick power plants over in the poorest parts of the community in rural areas, but we don't we steer away from offending the rich and the powerful. And it's inherently true when you get to wind power because who lives along the American shoreline tend to be favored folks and maybe a little bit higher and

Tyler Buckingham  54:51  
they happen to use a lot of power those those wealthy coastal cities keep the lights on well, and so It makes it kind of makes sense to put the put the power, I realized that these these bad boys are quite a ways out there. But I think it makes sense to put them near the big cities of the East Coast. Now. What I'm what comes to mind for me also on this note of the social justice component is that so many of our coastal impoverished communities, really communities that are underserved, are adjacent to our an area's a of major flooding. They're they're on the front lines of sea level rise and flooding risks increasing. And the other irony is that this is the MIT the mitigation for that. And and it's going there as well. So it's a it's a really interesting, exactly. I don't I don't know if there's an answer there. Just it's a really interesting observation.

Peter Ravella  55:53  
Kris, you had mentioned, I wanted to talk a little bit about what your reading is so far of the Biden administration and the Bureau of offshore energy management, the principal agencies, and as you said, there's multiple federal agencies involved here. But are you an optimist, looking over the next four year period with this administration, and in your position, as the executive director of the special initiative on offshore wind? Are you are you thinking? Are you an optimist about the next four years? Or does this look like some heavy slog? Or what do you think?

Kris Ohleth  56:31  
I think both. I think I am optimistic, but it's a heavy slog at the same time. So it's not not one or the other. It's, you know, this combination of strong accountability of the Biden era that I think is important to the nation. And that will demand that offshore wind is done well done, right? It's going to be held to a higher standard than maybe any other type of energy development. And we need to be ready for it. We are going to be challenged on the basis of NEPA, on socio economic impacts to the fishing community. Right. But at the same time, you know, the Biden administration is very interested in well paying union jobs. We know that offshore wind, we've seen all the developers now essentially committing to using union labor for these projects. This is a whole new industry for organized labor, they are so excited. And when you have them behind you, you really have a ticket.

Peter Ravella  57:30  
Yep. Yep. Jones Act application for the development of surface I mean, support vessels for offshore wind has been announced, which means these are going to be us constructed support vessels. Yes. That's a big deal for the working class communities and shipbuilders, I want to ask you, just a couple of questions about the fishing community made two things one I have had, I don't know where I've read this. But I was curious about the possible connection between offshore wind power facilities and future Aqua culture. We know down here on the Gulf Coast of Texas, and we're used to seeing things offshore out in the water lit up at night and drilling platforms and production platforms. And it's not not something people are generally uncomfortable with. But these facilities are also significant environmental resources and are well known to the fishermen. These are the places to go. Is there any discussion about what these platforms might mean in terms of offshore aquaculture? Is there any way to tie that together? Can we sort of expand this industry to be a twofer? Or am I being did I read that? Or am I just did I dream it I can't read?

Tyler Buckingham  58:43  
We might have just been kicking that around

Peter Ravella  58:47  
Some offshore mussels?

Kris Ohleth  58:48  
I mean, it's an interesting idea. And this idea of kind of CO locating right, those type of facilities where you're then minimizing impacts in other areas, right, if you're kind of locating it within other, you know, these industrialized areas, as some put it, but I think what the challenges is, you know, the the wind farms are so far offshore. Yeah, aquaculture is more often explored in the near coastal areas. And, you know, frankly, there isn't a good regulatory structure for aquaculture. The US lags. From what I understand pretty far behind in that we do it's like,

Peter Ravella  59:29  
it's worse than wind power. It's worse than wind power, there's less regulatory structure for offshore aquaculture than there is for wind.

Kris Ohleth  59:38  
And so it's really I think it can be like a bit of a stressor for the offshore wind community to think about, okay, trying to layer that on at this both being kind of infancy stages. So, I mean, I think it's an interesting concept, but you know, maybe we'll see that in the offshore wind

Tyler Buckingham  59:53  
for now, for now, it's good. barroom talk,

Peter Ravella  59:57  
right? Post COVID we should just put some puts mussels and oysters out.

Kris Ohleth  1:00:02  
I want to go to the bars you're going to.

Tyler Buckingham  1:00:04  
Okay, I've got one more interesting one that that I, while we have you, you know, we have a real expert here we do. But um, I heard the idea of creating hydrogen with with these wind turbine, I realized that, you know, you can create hydrogen, you can electrolysis water with any power source, but the notion is, if you do it with a wind turbine, it's done at carbon neutral. And then you have hydrogen, which I guess is a good can be a good fuel source energy source, because when you burn it, it turns into water and water. Which is cool. Yeah. Do you know anything?

Peter Ravella  1:00:50  
Here's another one of our "What about this combination?" What about wind power plus hydrogen production?

Kris Ohleth  1:00:57  
Save the crazy ones for last right?

Peter Ravella  1:00:59  
Yeah, that's right.

Kris Ohleth  1:01:00  
No, I mean, it certainly is a budding issue. And this idea, you know, when you look at, you know, gas turbines, they, you know, they're always going to be turbines that need another fuel source than just electricity. And so if you can use hydrogen to supplant gas in a turbine structure, I think that's kind of the Holy Grail. If we're really trying to decarbonize our energy system. We're still pretty far away. I know worstead was just engaging in a green hydrogen project demonstration in Denmark. So we're keeping our eye on that. But certainly, these are the really interesting concepts of the future.

Tyler Buckingham  1:01:47  
Man, the future, man how could you not see the glass half full?

Peter Ravella  1:01:48  
Yeah, I'm telling on this issue. I'm hoping if we blow this, I'm gonna be I'm not gonna be happy. I'm worried I'm gonna be a mad, American. Me too. Gotta get this right. This needs to happen. Well, closing thoughts, Kris, thank you for taking time to to talk about wind power, but we'd like to give you the last word.

Kris Ohleth  1:02:09  
I appreciate the opportunity to share these concepts with your audience, I hope that they'll reach out to the special initiative on offshore wind. If you want to learn more about any of these specific topics. If you want to, you know talk about aquaculture and hydrogen, I'm happy to wax poetic. So I really appreciate the opportunity to talk about my favorite thing in the world, which is offshore wind.

Peter Ravella  1:02:32  
Ladies and gentlemen, it is Kris Olaf. She is the executive director of the special initiative on offshore wind associated with the University of Delaware College of Earth, ocean and the environment. really wish you the best in what you're doing now, in your new position. I think you're one of the spearheads of get what's got to be one of the key solutions we come to which is renewable power offshore and particularly wind and so pleased to have you on the podcast and sharing your insights with our listeners. When you're welcome back. Anytime you've got news, we'd love to we'd love to talk to you again.

Kris Ohleth  1:03:11  
Great. Thank you so much.

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